Subjects: TikTok; the Treasurer’s budget blunders, dietary metaphors, and lack of an economic plan; the Prime Minister’s cost of living crisis; Labor’s energy policy shambles; nuclear energy.
E&OE
SARAH ABO:
Well, TikTok could soon be banned in the United States over security concerns, with the Opposition calling on the PM to take action on the social media app.
Let’s bring in Minister for Government Services Bill Shorten in Hobart this morning, and Opposition Leader Peter Dutton in the studio. Good to see you both.
PETER DUTTON:
‘Morning, Sarah.
SARAH ABO:
Bill, I’ll start with you. Eight million Australians use TikTok. So, are you going to ban the app?
BILL SHORTEN:
No. The Government has said that we’re not going to ban the app. We will rely on the advice of our security agencies. What we have done is said that for government phones, for sensitive government phones, we’re not going to use the app. So, we’ll just take the advice of the professionals and we’ll take it step by step.
SARAH ABO:
You’re not worried about the Chinese mining data of Australians?
BILL SHORTEN:
I think that as a general issue is a challenge, yes. But, I’ll be honest, with TikTok, whilst I acknowledge the national security debate which is important, as a parent, I think there’s a separate discussion to be had about the impact of social media on kids in particular. The algorithms that these programs use, I think, do have an injuring effect on kids, but in terms of – so I’m not a fan of TikTok at all – but in terms of national security, we’ll take the advice of the national security experts.
SARAH ABO:
Yeah, you don’t want to pick a fight with those teenagers either over TikTok. Peter, your cyber security expert, James Paterson, says that he thinks it should be banned. So why not introduce a ban right now?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Sarah, as Bill says, it depends on the advice that the Government’s getting from the national security chiefs. If they’re saying, ‘look, Prime Minister, we’ve got a real problem here because young kids, you know, Australians of all ages are using TikTok, and their personal information is being mined, their images are being captured and Australians are having their devices exploited’, then the Prime Minister’s got a responsibility to step up and do the right thing by Australians. Now, whether that’s banning it, will depend on the advice…
SARAH ABO:
Will you be agitating for that, though?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I want to make sure that our kids are safe online. I haven’t got the advice that the Prime Minister gets from the head of ASIO and the head of the cyber security centres, etc. But clearly, there’s a huge problem, and if you’ve got personal data on there and it’s being taken by a third party or by a state actor, that is of huge concern to not just parents, but to the users as well.
We need to make sure that we’ve got a safe operating environment for our kids because they spend so much time on social media. They’re also sharing intimate images and conversations, and if all of that data is being extracted against your knowledge or consent, then I think the Prime Minister does need to step up.
SARAH ABO:
And just quickly, Bill, is this about not really annoying the Chinese any further? We know we’re trying to thaw relationships there.
BILL SHORTEN:
No, not at all. Prime Minister Albanese and the whole Government will place our national security priority and agenda ahead of any other issue.
SARAH ABO:
Alright. Well, we heard from the Treasurer, Jim Chalmers yesterday. He’s warned Aussies not to expect a cash splash in May’s budget, signalling the need to curb inflation and bring much needed relief to households. Bill, the Treasurer seemed to be making two arguments at once, saying the Government needs some kind of growth strategy, while also saying he won’t be able to help that along because of inflation. You can’t have it two ways, can you?
BILL SHORTEN:
Well, I think Jim has said that in this budget, we want more protein than carbs. I mean, we do have the tax cuts coming along – the Labor tax cuts coming along on the 1st of July, that’ll be important. But he’s also saying that we don’t want to have any spending which…
SARAH ABO:
So, will that be it then for relief?
BILL SHORTEN:
…doesn’t contribute to the economic growth of Australia.
SARAH ABO:
Will that be it for cost of living relief?
BILL SHORTEN:
Oh, I think that it’s our major – at this point, that’s our major strategy for relief. I know a lot of Australians – 13.6 million Australians, are looking forward to that tax relief. What the Treasurer’s saying is that we’ve got to make sure that there’s no wasteful spending, and he wants to make sure that the expenditure we are doing is contributing to growing the economy, and not putting additional pressure on households.
SARAH ABO:
He’s sounding conservative, Peter Dutton.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, what we know, Sarah, is that there is going to be a tax and spend budget. I mean, that’s what Labor always does. At the moment, I just think the cost of living pressures that families are facing, it’s astronomical, and there are a lot of families who just can’t balance the budget at the moment. The Government’s spending additional money, which is putting upward pressure on inflation and interest rates, and that is going to make it really tough not just for families, but for small businesses as well.
SARAH ABO:
Alright, Peter, this week you undermined the CSIRO. The peak science body has bitten back in its statement saying that ‘maintaining trust requires our political leaders to resist temptation to disparage science’, after you said they can’t be relied upon because they happen to be at odds with your nuclear policy.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, there’s nothing disparaging about the comments that I made or that we’ve made. My point is that we need to compare apples with apples. At the moment, that report that was released, it doesn’t take into consideration all of the costs around renewables. I’m strongly in favour of renewables, but we need to keep the lights on and we need to keep our prices down.
The fact that most other developed countries are adopting a zero emissions latest generation nuclear technology means that we could get greener power, we could get cheaper power, but also reliable power as well. We’re going to see more blackouts under this Government, and we’re going to see the cost of your electricity bill continue to go through the roof. All I’m saying is let’s have a fair comparison, instead of a skewed one, and that’s why I was critical of that particular report, not of the CSIRO in general, and I think it was a fair point to make.
SARAH ABO:
I mean, but you know better than most, this is going to cost tens of billions of dollars. It’s going to be more than ten years away. I mean, with due respect, you’re not a scientist, I’m not a scientist, they are. Do you want to pick a fight with them?
PETER DUTTON:
I’m not doubting the science. I’m talking about the economic modelling here, and the Government’s proposal at the moment on the 100 per cent renewables model is going to cost up to about $1.5 trillion.
All of that money is going to be passed on to consumers and small businesses who have been smashed at the moment already, they’ve got to roll at 28,000 kilometres of new poles and wires to make their system work, which is essentially the whole coastline of our country. It’s like pink batts on steroids. It’s not going to happen.
I don’t want to see families struggling. I don’t want to see them pay even more. The Prime Minister promised that power prices would go down by $275. Everyone knows that every bill is going up, and this Government’s taking our country in the wrong direction.
SARAH ABO:
Alright, well, talking about cash and splashing cash, it seems yes, the public may not get a hand-out at the May budget, but the politicians have no problem spending money. Greens Leader Adam Bandt slugging taxpayers nearly $1 million – $200,000 spent on printing. Bill, this isn’t fair – this isn’t going to wash with the public?
BILL SHORTEN:
Hey, if you want to talk about cash splash, Peter’s just spent a couple of minutes talking about everything but his own nuclear policy. Peter Dutton taking on the CSIRO, the best scientists in the country. Chucking on a white lab coat doesn’t make you a scientist, Peter. I’ve got one question – as you spent two minutes trying to rubbish Labor – are you willing to host one of your nuclear power plants in your electorate or anywhere in Queensland? You know, like, I actually think you are, I think you have a submerged and unrecognised sense of humour. Are you seriously taking the proverbial with your nuclear power frolic? Where are you going to put your reactors?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Bill, there is a huge argument in the United Kingdom at the moment where adults are able to have a conversation and the Labour Party there is arguing for the Tories to have more baseload nuclear power because they know it’s zero emissions. This Government, your Government, has no chance whatsoever of meeting the (net) zero ‘50 target. That’s the reality of it.
So, what we’ve said is that where you’ve got a retiring asset, so a coal fired generator, in a brownfield site, and you can replace that coal with a zero emissions technology, the latest technology – the same technology you’ve signed up to for the nuclear submarines – you’ve got the ability to distribute the power with those poles and wires already connected up to that site. That saves $1 trillion on your proposal…
SARAH ABO:
Alright, okay.
PETER DUTTON:
So, I reckon it’s okay.
SARAH ABO:
You two will argue about the merits of nuclear until…
BILL SHORTEN:
So you’re going to put power plants where all the coal plants are?
SARAH ABO:
Alright, that’s enough. We will leave this argument for another day, because I feel like there’s a lot more time that we could spend on it. Thank you both so much for coming in.
PETER DUTTON:
Pleasure, thank you.
SARAH ABO:
Appreciate it. Thanks, guys.
BILL SHORTEN:
Cheers.
[ends]