Subjects: Ministerial appointments; workforce shortages; Coalition’s plan to let older Australians keep more of what they earn; nuclear power; Labor’s Jobs and Skills Summit stunt; Victorian election.
RAF EPSTEIN
Peter Dutton was of course Defence Minister and Home Affairs Minister under Scott Morrison’s Government. Right now, of course, as you know, he is the Opposition Leader. Thank you for coming into the studio.
PETER DUTTON
My pleasure, Raf. Thank you.
RAF EPSTEIN
Did you know that Scott Morrison was sworn in, in various ministries?
PETER DUTTON
No, I didn’t. Obviously, the then Prime Minister had his reasons, his logic for it, but not a decision that I was a party to, or was aware of, and it’s a decision-making process that he’s made and, I mean, the only point I’d make is that at the start of Covid and – you know, I was in this category – I was an early adopter of Covid. I came back from the US and tested positive, and it was mandated that I be admitted to hospital, and so I suspect some of Scott’s logic at the time was if, you know, this was at the time, obviously, when there was no vaccine and people were all having all sorts of Armageddon scenarios and the briefings were pretty confronting when we first got them in NSC. So, no doubt all of that fed into his logic. But I wasn’t part of that decision making process and they’re decisions, like in any government, that are within the domain of the Prime Minister of the day.
RAF EPSTEIN
Would you like to have known?
PETER DUTTON
Well, it’s an issue for the then Prime Minister, as it is for this Prime Minister. I’m pretty sure that…
RAF EPSTEIN
You were in his cabinet. I’m just, personal opinion, like would you have preferred to have known?
PETER DUTTON
Pretty sure that Anthony Albanese doesn’t discuss with the whole backbench and the Ministry and the caucus who it is that he’s appointed to different portfolios. He makes that announcement – completely the gift within the Labor Party, of the Prime Minister, and within the Liberal Party of our leader as well.
RAF EPSTEIN
But we know about those appointments. We didn’t know about this one. Do you think there’s anything wrong with that?
PETER DUTTON
Well, Raf, as I say, I wasn’t there for the decision-making. I don’t know.
RAF EPSTEIN
I’m just going to push you for a value judgement.
PETER DUTTON
I thought you might, I thought you might!
RAF EPSTEIN
Do you think we should know as the public, should we know?
PETER DUTTON
Well, what I’ll say is I was there at the time, when we first got the briefings on Covid, we were talking about morgues being set up adjacent to public hospitals…
RAF EPSTEIN
But this is a year later, 2021. Keith Pitt, Resources Minister.
PETER DUTTON
…we were talking about the whole arrangement of potentially deploying police and army personnel to turn people away from emergency departments. You saw the tragic loss of life in North America, in Europe, in Asia, and it was, as I say, the most confronting period that I’d had in Parliament. So, no doubt the Prime Minister had some of that logic playing in the back of his mind when he was making these decisions.
RAF EPSTEIN
Do you think any of that logic covers Keith Pitt, Resources 2021?
PETER DUTTON
Raf, again, mate, I know as much as you do. I’ve read…
RAF EPSTEIN
I’m asking you for your opinion. Do you think any of the logic you just laid out for me covers the Resources Minister issue?
PETER DUTTON
No. It’s a different time. That’s clearly the case, but as I say, I wasn’t consulted, I wasn’t part of the decision-making process, and I’ve read about it in the paper in the last couple of days and that’s, you know, just not something that I…
RAF EPSTEIN
You don’t want to venture a personal opinion on whether or not it was the right or wrong thing to do?
PETER DUTTON
Well, Raf, I’m the Leader of the Liberal Party and…
RAF EPSTEIN
…Which is why your opinions interest me.
PETER DUTTON
…and your opinion as, you know, as a highly esteemed journalist, I’m sure matters. On mine – we had an election in May of this year, there was a new government elected and I can tell you around kitchen tables tonight, people are talking about how they’re going to pay their power bill, how they’re going to balance their budgets…
RAF EPSTEIN
We will come to all of that.
PETER DUTTON
I hope so, because frankly, I think that’s the issue that’s most important to the Australian community at the moment.
RAF EPSTEIN
Do you think the Governor-General should have told anyone, was there any obligation on him?
PETER DUTTON
Well look, the Governor-General’s issued a statement today and he’s a person for whom I have the utmost respect and he’s explained his position, his understanding of the law, the Constitution, and I’ve no doubt that he acted entirely appropriately – as you would expect from a man of his standing.
RAF EPSTEIN
I didn’t ask: was he sworn in as Defence Minister, do you know?
PETER DUTTON
Not to my knowledge, no.
RAF EPSTEIN
As far as you know. No?
PETER DUTTON
No.
RAF EPSTEIN
And no one, just wondered – has a journalist contacted you to say: ‘hey, did you know Scott Morrison was sworn in as Defence Minister?’ You haven’t had those sort of questions?
PETER DUTTON
No, no.
RAF EPSTEIN
Ok, it’s thirteen minutes after five. You are, of course, listening to Peter Dutton, the new Opposition Leader, although not so new anymore, I guess, it’s some months since May 21. Why didn’t you want to go to the Government’s Job summit?
PETER DUTTON
I believe that we’d put forward a pretty good policy in relation to – and I announced this, you know, six weeks, eight weeks ago – given the tightness of the labour market to increase the threshold that allowed pensioners and veterans, so aged pensioners and veterans who were on a pension, who wanted to do an extra day or two, to be able to work. I thought that was the most direct way that we could get people into the labour market immediately, because it’s not just in agriculture, it’s in tourism, it’s in retail, it’s in aged care, it’s in childcare – and the Government rejected that. Now, I thought that was pretty disingenuous because, yes, there’s been a compounding effect of not having people arrive through the migration programme and so you are seeing businesses that can’t open for dinner if they’ve opened for lunch because they don’t have the staff in their restaurant etc. You are seeing aged care facilities where people aren’t getting the requisite care that they require. You are seeing families turned away from childcare. So, my view was that this was a reasonable proposition, which they rejected. And I thought if you were serious about addressing the issue, you would do it now…
RAF EPSTEIN
But that’s not an answer as to why you don’t want to go to the Jobs Summit.
PETER DUTTON
Well, it’s the preamble Raf. You’ve got to be, you know…
RAF EPSTEIN
Patient.
PETER DUTTON
…a little patient. So, I thought given the list of demands from the ACTU of increased taxation, and just the spell that the union movement has over this Government, that frankly, a talkfest with the unions wasn’t a good way to spend my time when I’d already put forward a pretty reasonable suggestion. They’d roundly rejected it. They’ve now picked it up and are saying that it will be part of the Jobs Summit, as it should, but we’ll have, we’ll have good policies in good time before the next election that will address all of this and many more subjects, that’ll be near and dear to your heart as well, I’m sure.
RAF EPSTEIN
It’s just that Angus Taylor repeatedly said earlier the Opposition should be invited. You said you didn’t want to go. David Littleproud who leads the Nationals, does want to go. It just seems like you’re a bit all over the shop as to whether you want the opposition involved.
PETER DUTTON
You’re always trying to find the negative here, Raf.
RAF EPSTEIN
No I’m just trying to find out whether or not you’re being consistent as an opposition.
PETER DUTTON
I want you to look for the positives. Look, mate, I have, I have a particular view. I’ve been clear about that. I’m not going along to the Summit because I think it’s a talkfest with the unions…
RAF EPSTEIN
You’re not left out? Every significant group in the country is going to be there.
PETER DUTTON
Well, they’re not actually, they’re not actually, and this is the point that David Littleproud was making. Nobody was invited from regional Australia and so he felt compelled to go there because not one business, not one representative from regional Australia had been invited and that is one of the most acute areas in the country where there is a labour shortage, and I think it’s reasonable the position that he’s taken.
RAF EPSTEIN
This might apply actually to the suggestion you put forward on pensioners being able to work more as well. You’ve now put forward, you want one of your team to have a look at nuclear power, both the pensions idea and nuclear power, you didn’t pick up and run either of those ideas in government. Why push them now?
PETER DUTTON
Well, Raf, I mean, you know, why didn’t Anthony Albanese pick up things that Kevin Rudd announced or Bill Shorten pushed at the 2019 election? I mean, that’s all ancient history now. I wasn’t the Leader of the Party. I’m the Leader of the Party now with the ability to make decisions and to make announcements, and yes, there’s lots of great things that we did when we were in government and I champion our record. I think Scott Morrison has a lot to be proud of. Lots of things that we got right, some things we didn’t get right, and people made a judgement. And as John Howard used to say, the public don’t get it wrong…
RAF EPSTEIN
What did you get wrong?
PETER DUTTON
Well there’ll be a number of things that our critics, including from the ABC, point out.
RAF EPSTEIN
You mentioned it, I didn’t mention it. What did you get wrong?
PETER DUTTON
Well, I was in Defence. I wish that we could have acquired more capability within Defence earlier, because I think that is probably the biggest issue of our time in relation to what China does, in relation to Taiwan, how that affects us economically, and as I say, our critics will point out lots of things, but I…
RAF EPSTEIN
Can I just ask about the Defence thing? Is that a function of, was that an unintended by-product of the leadership changes because it meant you had lots of different Defence Ministers?
PETER DUTTON
No, I don’t think so. I think there was, you know, different reasons why, during the course of Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard’s time, as well as Tony Abbott’s time, that the Defence establishment had a particular view or the machinery of the Defence Department, you know, grinded too slowly. But in the end it’s the responsibility of the Minister, or the Prime Minister of the day, and I want to take the good and learn from the bad and mould our policies accordingly. And I want to have those policies in good shape by the time the next election – well in advance of the next election – because I want people to properly understand what we stand for, the values that we represent, and I want to explain that properly. And that will all be done in good time.
RAF EPSTEIN
We’ll get to more policies. Let’s just get some traffic with Dan Belling.
[Traffic Report]
RAF EPSTEIN
Peter Dutton’s the LNP Member for Dickson, also of course the Opposition Leader, on a bit of a quick trip to Melbourne. If I can just ask one more question about nuclear power. You want Ted O’Brien to have a look at it, one of your team. We’ve had a lot of reports into nuclear power, including a Parliamentary Committee that he led. No one thinks it’s fast. No one thinks it’s cheap. So why bother?
PETER DUTTON
Well, Justin Trudeau does in Canada…
RAF EPSTEIN
But in Australia, in the Australian context.
PETER DUTTON
Well, let’s look at the international context. I mean, we want to make a contribution to improving a global reduction in emissions. And so it matters what we do here and it matters what people do in other countries. I caught up with Alok Sharma the other day who’s heading COP26 and a British Cabinet Minister in charge of climate change there. He was very clear about the fact that even with their pretty impressive commitments to rolling out EV, rolling out their reductions, they can’t meet that without being able to firm up their renewables and they do that through nuclear. France is doing the same. There’s obviously a huge discussion in Europe at the moment about the increased use of coal and gas because of what’s happening in Ukraine.
RAF EPSTEIN
None of that changes nuclear in Australian context.
PETER DUTTON
Well, of course it does, because why would you discount thinking about new nuclear, where you’re talking about small modular reactors. I think the debate’s changed in our country given the debate on the submarines – the nuclear-powered submarine – both the UK and the US model have a reactor, so a little small modular reactor that sits on the nuclear submarine remains intact for 32 years without having to be refuelled, zero emissions…
RAF EPSTEIN
But no one’s turned them into a power plant…
PETER DUTTON
Well, of course they are. They’re the basis of the small modular reactor, and you’ll expect, as with all things in Defence – GPS and many other technologies – the commercial world, the industrial world will follow the advances within the defence space. So the fact that we can’t even talk about it in our country, I think is absurd.
RAF EPSTEIN
I can, we’ve been talking about it for yonks, you’ve had a gazillion reports.
PETER DUTTON
I don’t think we have. I don’t think we’ve had a reasonable debate about it, and I think if you’re serious…
RAF EPSTEIN
…your own Government had a parliamentary committee, when you were in government, you had a parliamentary committee that debated it.
PETER DUTTON
And recommended lifting the moratorium…
RAF EPSTEIN
And you didn’t do it.
PETER DUTTON
…and we didn’t do it in government. I think there’s time for a reasonable, balanced debate about it, about the positives and negatives. If you’ve got a government at the moment that is talking about rolling out transmission wires through suburbs and towns across the country, if you think that’s going to happen in the next few years at a cost of anything less than tens of billions of dollars, I think the Government is misleading you. And if you look at what happened with the rollout of NBN, the complication of rolling it up to people’s houses, etc., the community feedback to a single 5G tower going into a local community, if you think that that is going to be an easy process for the government – it’s not. In Germany, they abandoned that plan, which makes it more difficult to get renewables into the system. So, the question is how do we firm up those renewables? And that’s the debate that’s still not settled in our country. And for now, there is a higher uptake, as I said before, of coal and gas because hydrogen’s not a reality, the battery doesn’t exist that can firm up, and hydro is, you know, relevant in some parts of the country, but in most, it’s not.
RAF EPSTEIN
You will not or did not vote for the Government’s 43 per cent emissions target and I don’t want to prosecute that old ground. But if you weren’t for that, can you win back Goldstein and Kooyong at the next election?
PETER DUTTON
Well, I was in favour of reductions in our emissions. We went to the election with 26 to 28 per cent. The reality is, I think when that is finalised, when the actual figure comes in, I think it’s going to be closer to 40 per cent. One of the problems in the Liberal Party is that we don’t sell well enough what we do – and the highest uptake of solar on a per capita basis of anywhere in the world; the billions of dollars that we invested into technology and lots of…
RAF EPSTEIN
So you think you can win Kooyong and Goldstein back?
PETER DUTTON
I do think we can.
RAF EPSTEIN
Next election?
PETER DUTTON
I do think we can.
RAF EPSTEIN
Really?
PETER DUTTON
Absolutely. Why don’t you?
RAF EPSTEIN
I’m asking you, because you didn’t sign the very thing that got those Members elected and they wanted something, actually, both Monique Ryan and Zoe Daniel wanted something higher than the Government’s target. You didn’t vote for that target, but you think you can win those seats back? What are you going to be able to say to those people to persuade them to boot out Zoe Daniel and Monique Ryan?
PETER DUTTON
Well, you’re assuming that that’s the only issue that will play on people’s minds at the next election. I’m deeply worried about what the economic situation will be for our country over the next couple of years. I think the fundamentals of our economy are much stronger than most other developed economies and the Labor Party should acknowledge it, and they do, to be fair: the lowest unemployment rate in 50 years and we’ve got a lot to be very proud of. So, I hope that we can avoid recession, desperately I hope that we can avoid recession in our country, and I think we will, but I think the US, the likelihood of the US going into recession is very real. That will have a contagion effect. I was talking to a business in Penrith only late last week, Thursday or Friday of last week. In their business they had forecast that their electricity bill for the quarter would be $69,000. It came in just over $200,000…
RAF EPSTEIN
Sure and that’s the problem…
PETER DUTTON
Now families are living this around their kitchen table, on petrol, on groceries, on every element, including their mortgage that makes up part of their budget…
RAF EPSTEIN
But you know, you can’t rely on the economy being bad to get back in.
PETER DUTTON
It’s not a matter of relying on it. It’s a matter of who is going to go into the next campaign, having the policies around climate, around energy, around cost of living, around taxation, that is better for their families and for our country. And that’s the work that I’m doing at the moment, to put us in a position where people in those seats and many more across the country will be able to answer that the Liberal Party is the best option for them and I don’t think this Government will have the ability to make the right calls when it comes to taxation, to respond to whatever prevails over the next couple of years, and I think people will see Labor making a bad situation worse.
RAF EPSTEIN
Have you had a meeting with any of the independents yet? Have you met?
PETER DUTTON
I’ve met with most of them. Helen Haines, I spoke to on the phone today – she had, I think, had Covid during the last sitting week…
RAF EPSTEIN
What do you make of them? Are they impressive or not?
PETER DUTTON
Very impressive people. And you know, I get on well with Anthony Albanese. I’ve had a friendship with him for, you know, my time in Parliament. There are good people on all sides of politics and I have a great deal of respect for them. They’re members of Parliament. They’ve been voted in by their communities, but I want to see Josh Frydenberg back in Kooyong.
RAF EPSTEIN
Will he run again?
PETER DUTTON
I hope he will, and I hope that…
RAF EPSTEIN
Have you spoken to him about running again?
PETER DUTTON
I have. And I hope that Katie Allen runs again. I hope that Tim Wilson does…
RAF EPSTEIN
Have they left their options open, both of them?
PETER DUTTON
Well, I suspect that they can speak for themselves, and…
RAF EPSTEIN
I’m asking you to speak for them.
PETER DUTTON
Well, if you don’t mind, I won’t betray the personal conversations I’ve had with them, but I would encourage them publicly and privately.
RAF EPSTEIN
Did you really want to be Opposition Leader?
PETER DUTTON
Nobody wants to be Opposition Leader, Raf!
RAF EPSTEIN
But I’m asking if you want it, because you could have – you’ve done a fair bit in Parliament. You could have gone, ‘you know what? Too hard, I’ll just, I’ll be, you know, Member for Dickson and then leave at the next election.’ Did you really want to be Opposition Leader or was it a case, no one else could really do it?
PETER DUTTON
I think it’s disingenuous if you believe that you can lead your party and the opportunity comes up and you don’t take it. I believe that I have the experience. I’ve had 20 years in Parliament, I was the Assistant Treasurer to Peter Costello. I’ve worked as the Health Minister, the Sports Minister. I was Shadow Finance Minister and Deregulation. I have been in the Home Affairs portfolio, as you point out, Immigration, Defence. I’ve been…
RAF EPSTEIN
…Can you win?
PETER DUTTON
I believe that we can, yes.
RAF EPSTEIN
Can I ask a cruel question or a mean question? You are sometimes criticised as being one-dimensional, right? You’ve only got one, I don’t know, head-kicker or Defence Minister or is that sort of thing going to hold you back from winning an election?
PETER DUTTON
I just think it’s at a time when you’ve got a particular job to do. I mean, Jim Chalmers has been, you know, anointed as the chief head-kicker for the Labor Government. Is that all Jim is? No, of course it’s not. Was it the case for Kim Beazley when he was in that role or for Tony Burke as the Leader of Government Business? Of course it’s not. My task is to show people who I am; who people who know me well privately know me to be, and people will make their own judgement by the time at the next election. But have I had tough jobs in Defence, in Home Affairs, talking about kicking out sex offenders and the rest? Yes. And, you know, when my mum says to me, you need to smile more, you know, on TV or whatever else, I say, mum, that’s fine, but if I’m talking about, you know, those serious topics, it’s pretty hard to sort of break into a joke or be jovial about it. So, I’ve got to demonstrate to people that I’m not that one-dimensional character that they might believe me to be. That’s my job over the course of the next couple of years, and I believe I can achieve that.
RAF EPSTEIN
Do you think Matthew Guy can win?
PETER DUTTON
I hope that he can, and…
RAF EPSTEIN
Do you think he will?
PETER DUTTON
I hope that he can, and I think it’s a tough job here, because there’s no trickier politician in the business than Daniel Andrews…
RAF EPSTEIN
Maybe he’s just really good?
PETER DUTTON
I think, give credit to him, he’s been able to find his way out of every cul-de-sac. He’s been able to stare down all of the corruption allegations and he’s been smeared with all sorts of things, and he comes out smelling of roses on each occasion. A lot of people are still angry with him over different decisions he’s taken over the course of the last few years…
RAF EPSTEIN
So why can’t Matthew Guy capitalise on that anger?
PETER DUTTON
Well, that’s a judgement for the people of Victoria to make and I hope that, I do think – and I think this is true of Liberal and Labor and you could say this after we’d had nine years in government – a change, frankly, is good for a state or for the country. It allows a refresh of ideas…
RAF EPSTEIN
You don’t think it’s good that you lost the election?
PETER DUTTON
I think I think the only silver lining having been in Opposition before, the only silver lining that you can point to, is it allows you to sort of put aside the day-to-day management and the time that it takes to deal with a portfolio like Defence where you’re on the go 24/7 and it allows you to step back to have a conversation with people again about policy…
RAF EPSTEIN
So you’re actually enjoying meeting more humans?
PETER DUTTON
Well, I’ve met lots of humans, but you have you have the ability to speak and have a conversation about new policies…
RAF EPSTEIN
Because you have more time?
PETER DUTTON
Yes, and it allows you to reset, it allows you to work on that policy, which you can then take the next to the next election. And I think in Victoria, it is time for a change, but that’ll be up to the Victorian public to decide whether that’s the case or not.
RAF EPSTEIN
Can we get back in the studio and maybe take some talkback calls next time?
PETER DUTTON
Yeah, I’m happy to. Very happy to. Nice to be with you.
RAF EPSTEIN
See how you go. Thanks for coming in.
PETER DUTTON
Thanks, mate. Thank you.
[ends]