Subjects: Visit by Chinese Premier Li Qiang to Australia; Labor’s cost of living crisis; Labor’s energy policy shambles; nuclear energy; the Prime Minister’s failure to condemn John Setka and stand up to the Unions; the Prime Minister’s lack of leadership; US election.
E&OE
ANDREW CLENNELL:
Well, joining me now live is the Opposition Leader Peter Dutton. Peter Dutton, thanks so much for your time this morning.
PETER DUTTON:
Thanks Andrew.
ANDREW CLENNELL:
Well, let’s begin with the visit of Premier Li. You’ve been calling on the Government to muscle up to China. You’re due to meet him on Monday afternoon. Tony Abbott once famously remarked he was going to ‘shirt front’ Vladimir Putin – will that be your approach to the meeting?
PETER DUTTON:
The short answer is no. I had a great meeting with the Foreign Minister, Wang Yi, only a few months ago in Canberra. We obviously have met with the Chinese Ambassador and with other visiting Chinese officials as well. So, we’ll have that meeting scheduled tomorrow and very happy to meet with Premier Li.
It’s important that he’s visiting, obviously, South Australia and Western Australia as well, getting a better feel of the country, and no doubt visiting the resources sector in WA, which will be an important part of that visit.
ANDREW CLENNELL:
The PM’s made clear he’s going to raise these difficult issues with the Chinese Premier around the incidents with the Australian Navy, the case of Yang Hengjun – will you be raising these issues as well? And will you raise issues around cyber attacks and foreign interference?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Andrew, as we would with any partner – and China’s an incredibly important trading partner – I’d love to see the trading relationship increase two fold. I’d love to see there being a liberation of some of the trading arrangements – and I think that’s to the mutual benefit of both China and Australia as well – but equally, as I say, with any partner where we have difficulties, or in an honest, open relationship; it’s important to raise, not just the opportunities, but the grievances, or the concerns that we have. We would do it with New Zealand, we’d do it with the United States and we would do it with China as well. That’s certainly been the approach in the past and it’s an approach that will continue into the future.
ANDREW CLENNELL:
Will you raise Taiwan with the Chinese Premier?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, we’ll raise a number of issues, and I’m going to meet with the Chinese Premier, along with Simon Birmingham and Kevin Hogan, our Shadow Foreign Affairs Minister and Trade Minister, respectively, and we’ll raise those issues that are important. There are other military issues. It’s obviously a broad and complex relationship. The focus will be on how we can increase our trading arrangements, but, as I say, to be good friends you need to have an honest relationship where there are concerns, and there’ll be concerns that the Chinese have that they’ll want to raise with us as well. That’s as these relationships will continue.
I was a Minister heavily engaged with the Obama Administration, with the Trump Administration, with the Biden Administration, and from time to time, there are grievances, as well as points of clarification, as well as points of heated agreement. That’s the nature, obviously, of these relationships.
ANDREW CLENNELL:
How do you view this visit as opposed to say, President Xi visiting? What’s the difference?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, the difference, obviously, is that the Premier is our Prime Minister’s counterpart. So, there’ll be an opportunity for Anthony Albanese to strengthen that relationship – and we certainly support it. As I say, there are many economic interests at stake here and we have to make sure that we’ve got security around supply chains, essential medicines. We need to make sure that we’ve got security around elements that are essential for our industry to continue to operate. We need to make sure that there are new markets that are opening up for us, either with China or many other countries, and we can grow the economy out of that.
I think what’s obvious to most Australians at the moment is that over three budgets, the Government’s really made very tough decisions for families. It’s obviously politically suited the Government, but they’ve really driven the economy into a pretty dire position at the moment. I want to make sure that we can grow our economy, expand it so that we can create jobs and economic opportunity, taxes, royalties for the rest of the community. We just don’t operate without a strong economy, and that’s why families are really hurting under Labor at the moment.
ANDREW CLENNELL:
I wanted to move on now to this issue of the 2030 climate change target. Do you expressly oppose this target of the Government’s to reduce emissions by 43 per cent from 1990 levels by 2030, or is it that it’s just your view the Government won’t reach the target, so there’s no point committing to it?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I’ve made the point Andrew, that there’s no prospect, it seems, of the Government reaching the target. They introduced a Bill, which is now law, to increase the price of cars by about $10,000 to help them achieve the 43 per cent target. They’re still not going to get there anyway. The 43 per cent target has contributed significantly to an increase in power prices, and I think the question is, ‘what’s in our country’s best interests?’. I know the Prime Minister loves to hang out with all the world leaders and get a slap on the back and the rest of it, but his job is actually to make it easier, not harder, for Australian families and small businesses.
So, we’re fully committed to net zero by 2050. I think interim targets are fine where they’re realistic and we support renewables going into the system, we know that there is 90 per cent firming, or 24/7 power coming out of the system by 2034. The Prime Minister talks about green hydrogen replacing that – it’s not commercially viable yet, and there are a lot of question marks over whether it can be, particularly given how much water is consumed to make each kilo – so, we have to make sure that we’ve got a realistic system.
Energy is the economy. It’s not just your household power bill that’s going through the roof. It’s the local butcher, and the local IGA, the local cold store, the local farmer, anybody that’s got cold storage. That’s why under Labor you’re paying so much more for your groceries when you go to the supermarket.
So, we have to get a system that’s working right for us, and the Prime Minister’s about to sign up to a 2035 target – only essentially a decade away – and that’s going to be between 65 and 75 per cent – we don’t even see any economic modelling yet. So, what will that mean for extra increases in power prices? And a renewables only approach that the Government’s adopted is going to continue to drive up power prices. Their plan is $1.2 to $1.5 trillion – all of which is going to be paid for by consumers and small business people.
ANDREW CLENNELL:
Were you to hit government, would you seek to change the legislation around the 2030 target?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I would act in our country’s best interests, Andrew. We’ve got international obligations. We don’t propose to leave the Paris Agreement at all – and we’re fully signed up to net zero by 2050 – but if you think it’s a linear progression, they will cripple the economy.
At the moment, Labor is slowly grinding the economy to a halt. There was 0.1 per cent of growth in the last quarter. We know that we’re up to five quarters now consecutively of negative growth on a per capita basis – and families know it.
You speak to retailers around the country, to cafe owners and restaurateurs – they see it – they are down in double digits in terms of their turnover. People are coming into restaurants and not ordering as much, or they’re just eating at home. There is a chance that we go into recession, which is why I think there is talk of an early election. The Prime Minister will want to go before that. We know that we’ve had 12 interest rate increases, and we’ve had a three-fold increase in the number of manufacturing businesses, which have closed over the last two years under this Government.
So, over three budgets, they’ve made decisions which have made it much tougher for families, small businesses are closing at record numbers. I think this is a Government that, through its energy policy – the renewables only policy, not take into account gas and nuclear and making sure that we can have a good balance – they really are wrecking the economy at the moment.
ANDREW CLENNELL:
But Mr Dutton, just again, if you came into government, would you seek to change the legislation around the 2030 target? To change that target?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Andrew, I think it would be responsible to take advice from Treasury and Finance and the central agencies about the economic conditions that we inherited from Labor. We know that debt will be over $1 trillion, that will be bequeathed to the next government from Labor. We know that there’s a prospect of negative growth, and we’re likely going into the sixth consecutive quarter of per capita – people going backwards in their own budgets, that’s what that means – so, I think we have a look at all of that information and if there are settings that we need to change, then we would change them if it means helping families with a cost of living crisis that Labor has created. But it doesn’t mean exiting Paris and it doesn’t mean walking away from our very clear commitment to net zero by 2050.
We’re decarbonising, our economy is transitioning, and I believe that with a zero emissions nuclear technology, underpinning gas – gas is going to be required like we’ve never seen before, as we see the 90 per cent of those firming powers going out of the system by 2034, and we’re going to see the need for a replacement. And to green hydrogen, the Prime Minister can’t tell you when that’s going to come into the system – otherwise the lights go out, which is what the regulator’s warning at the moment. Under this Government, there’s likely to be blackouts and brownouts.
ANDREW CLENNELL:
Will you come up with a 2035 target by the time of the election? You’ve just mentioned the Government are going to come up with one. Will you come up with an alternative as an Opposition?
PETER DUTTON:
If the Government releases the economic modelling, which shows how negatively this will impact on the economy, then we will be able to consider that and have an informed judgement. I think why not sign up to 90 per cent or 95 or 55 or 45 or 78? What do these numbers mean without understanding the impact on people’s household budgets?
People are struggling at the moment. They’re losing their jobs, people are not able to afford their mortgages, the electricity prices under this Government have gone up by 30 per cent, gas is up, groceries are up, your insurance premiums are up. The whole economy depends on energy. Whenever you’ve got an increase in the cost for farming through extra costs for cold storage, the farmers pass that on through higher prices that you’ll ultimately pay at the checkout. If the Prime Minister doesn’t get this, and he doesn’t understand that people are hurting at the moment, I just don’t know what…I mean, what do people have to do? Marching in the streets to tell him the reality of their lives at the moment?
So, let’s look at the economic modelling and understand the impact; good, bad or otherwise, on our nation and make an informed judgement. Otherwise, I think it would be reckless, frankly, to sign up to a target sight unseen, and not understanding whether it’s going to mean another 30 per cent increase in people’s power prices.
There are pensioners this winter who are eating or heating, but not both, and I’m not going to contribute to further agony for Australians that the Prime Minister is imposing on them at the moment, and that’ll be a big difference between the two Parties as we go into the next election.
ANDREW CLENNELL:
What’s your reaction to the wind farm Chris Bowen has approved offshore in the Illawarra over the weekend?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I’ve engaged with the community. I’ve been up there twice, and Ted O’Brien’s been up there a number of times. I want to understand what it is the Government’s now proposing. I understand it’s further out to sea, but there are all sorts of concerns from environmental groups, from tourist groups, from fishing groups. These are all people that have got the environment first and foremost in their thoughts. They are opposed to it and fiercely opposed to it.
So, we’ll have a look at what’s happened. There was no proper community consultation, which really made the local residents angry in the first instance, and I think Chris Bowen, again, has botched this.
This guy is a walking disaster. He was in the Gillard years and he is now, because he’s the person Anthony Albanese has handpicked to preside over an energy policy which is destroying our economy. He’s got scant regard for the local communities and all in the effort to get to their 43 per cent, and as I say, like most other countries, we’ve got time between now and 2050. It doesn’t mean that we have to do everything in 2045, it means that we have to be doing things continuously, but not in a way which is destroying the environment and our economy.
ANDREW CLENNELL:
When will we see the nuclear policy? And can you confirm that the policy includes possible sites for nuclear power stations in Latrobe, the Hunter Valley, Gladstone, Port Augusta and Collie?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, what we’ve said Andrew, is that the sites that we’re looking at are only those sites where there’s an end of life coal fired power station. Importantly, one of the main reasons is that people in those communities know that their jobs are going when coal goes, and we have the ability to sustain heavy industry, we have the ability to keep the lights on, and out of the top 20 economies in the world, Australia is the only one where they’re not using or haven’t signed up to nuclear power. So, what does Anthony Albanese and Chris Bowen know that the leaders of the top 19 economies don’t? I mean, it’s just a nonsense.
So, let’s have a mature conversation. They’re the sites that we’re looking at, that can provide the 24/7 power, so the lights don’t go out. Manufacturing will not stay in this country if they don’t have consistent, reliable power…
ANDREW CLENNELL:
So, Mr Dutton, four or five? So five sites?
PETER DUTTON:
…and we’re paying the highest prices in the world for our energy when we’ve got an abundance of natural resource.
ANDREW CLENNELL:
So, around five sites?
PETER DUTTON:
We’ve said that we’re looking at between six and seven sites, and we’ll make an announcement at a time of our choosing, not of Labor’s choosing. I mean the fact that Chris Bowen’s…
ANDREW CLENNELL:
Alright, just on that.
PETER DUTTON:
…tying himself in knots because he doesn’t have – I couldn’t care less for Chris Bowen.
ANDREW CLENNELL:
Alright, the six or seven sites, do you expect a nuclear power station on each one? Or it’s just one or two power stations on two of those sites, for example?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Andrew, we’ll provide that advice in due course. Obviously there’s a capacity of energy generation from those sites now. So, if you’re going to replace one of those, then you would look at something along those lines in terms of output. But again, I’d just make this point; in terms of the environmental impact, which is the other side of the nuclear debate; the Government in South Australia and frankly, the Labor Government in Western Australia, have signed up to having the nuclear submarines – that Labor’s signed up to at a federal level – docked at Osborne in South Australia’s case, and in Western Australia at Henderson, for decades to come, a matter of kilometres from suburbs. So, the Labor Party obviously is not worried about safety issues – this is the 21st century, we’re not talking about 1950s technology.
Second point is that if you look at a 470 megawatt small modular reactor, it takes up a footprint of about five acres – you need five acres for one of those sites. For the equivalent solar array, you need 4,000 hectares, or 10,000 acres of flat land for those solar panels. As Bill Gates says, you should yield the maximum amount of energy out of every square metre of impact on the environment. So, Labor’s proposal is to put 28,000km of new poles and wires around the country. That’s equivalent to the distance of the entire Australian coastline, and I just think there is a better way.
Let’s have a mature conversation about it. The Prime Minister says it’s going to be green hydrogen at some point, but again, it’s prospective. We don’t know whether it’s scalable, whether it’s safe, and it uses something like nine litres of water for every kilogram produced. So, I don’t want the lights to go out, I want there to be reliable power, I want pensioners to be able to pay their bills and turn the air conditioning on to get through winter, I want to make sure that businesses can grow here, not close and move to Malaysia or somewhere else. In Ontario, they’re paying 25 per cent the cost of electricity that we are here, they’ve got 60 per cent nuclear in the system. So, let’s have a sensible discussion, and I believe it’s in our country’s long term best interests.
Don’t forget also Andrew – just final point – the wind turbines for example you referenced before, they’ve got a lifespan, an amortisation period, of about 20 years. They need to be ripped out of the ground, including 1000m³ as the footing for each of these wind turbines, they need to be put then into landfill and then replaced. The beauty of nuclear is that it lasts between 80 and 100 years. So the amortisation period is much longer, and therefore over time the electricity is much cheaper and certainly more reliable.
ANDREW CLENNELL:
Do you expect government involvement in these nuclear power stations? Would they be government subsidised or even government owned?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, every energy at the moment apart from coal is – so wind and solar, the other green energy sources – and don’t forget that nuclear is the greenest of them because it doesn’t emit any emissions whatsoever.
In Poland, they’ve adopted a plan there. It’s the equivalent of taking about nine million cars off the road. It’s a staggering…
ANDREW CLENNELL:
So, government subsidised or government owned by the sound?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, we’ll make our announcement in due course, but I just make the point that wind and solar don’t work without government subsidy.
Now, I’m very strongly supportive of renewable energy, but it needs to be firmed up because our hospitals can’t run 24/7 on wind and solar. They need that 24/7 baseload power. Ninety per cent of it, as I say, goes out of the system by 2034, and the beauty of nuclear is that it’s zero emissions, it can be delivered at a lesser cost, and it’s going to be able to keep out cold rooms, our cold storage, our industry, our hospitals, running 24/7.
At the moment, Mr Albanese and Mr Bowen have got us on a path to disaster.
ANDREW CLENNELL:
But most people think we couldn’t get nuclear power up till 2040. How would a Coalition Government bring down power bills in the short term?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, you need to bring significant amounts of gas into the system. Chris Bowen sort of belatedly acknowledged this, but that’s the reality. We need peaking, and gas will be required for that.
The Labor Governments in Victoria and New South Wales have already negotiated to extend the coal fired power stations – so that’s happening under Labor now. So that’s another reason why they won’t meet their 2030/43 per cent target. I don’t know what else they will do to damage the economy to meet their 2030/43 per cent target. Agriculture obviously is in the sights of this Government as well, but that would just harm our farming sector, it would decrease the amount of imports that we could send to a country like China.
I think this election is very much about who do you trust to run the economy and make sure that we can have a transition that’s going to meet our international obligations, but not bankrupt families and small businesses around the country.
ANDREW CLENNELL:
Alright. I wanted to ask you briefly now – because we’re out of time – about John Setka’s comments in relation to the AFL. The Fair Work Ombudsman is reported to be investigating. What do you think the Government should do about this issue?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I don’t understand why the CFMEU, which is full of people who have been convicted by the courts, of criminal offences, I don’t understand how they have any standing in society. Bob Hawke would have stood up to John Setka in a heartbeat. Anthony Albanese hasn’t got the backbone to stand up to John Setka and the other union bullies. It’s part of the reason we’ve got a housing crisis and a building crisis in our country at the moment. People are paying through the roof for stop and go people – they do wonderful work, but I just question whether it’s $200,000 a year and whether that’s affordable.
I just question whether the Prime Minister has any control over the union movement, or is it the union movement that’s got control over this Prime Minister, which is bad for the economy. I don’t understand how the Labor Party could stand before you and say ‘we don’t tolerate workplace bullying’, ‘we wouldn’t accept it in any workplace’, but John Setka can go in there with the bikies and start brawling with people that are on building sites, and threatening the AFL. What sort of Prime Minister do we have?
ANDREW CLENNELL:
Just finally, are you hoping for a Trump victory later this year? What do you make of the way Joe Biden’s appeared in recent days at the G7? And Daniel Mookhey, the New South Wales Treasurer, said that a Trump victory could hurt the New South Wales economy. What do you make of that?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Andrew, as I said before, I’ve worked very closely with the Obama, Trump and Biden Administrations, and I’ve got an excellent working relationship with key people across both the Republicans and the Democrats. Whoever the Americans decide to choose as their President will be a great friend to Australia, and the relationship will continue to grow and strengthen as it must.
As the Prime Minister says, we live in a very precarious world. When you look at what’s happening in the Middle East and what’s happening in Europe, what’s happening in our own region, we need to make sure that allies stand shoulder-to-shoulder, and that’s what we’ll continue to do with the incoming President in the United States. That’s been long standing, we can work with somebody from either side of the aisle.
ANDREW CLENNELL:
Opposition Leader Peter Dutton, thanks so much for your time.
PETER DUTTON:
Thanks Andrew. Thank you.
[ends]