Subjects: The Prime Minister’s divisive Voice, Treaty, Truth proposal; the barbaric attacks on Israel, the ramifications around Australia and Australia’s response; the Royal Launceston Show.
E&OE
RICHARD PERNO:
The Leader of the Federal Opposition, Peter Dutton. Good morning Peter.
PETER DUTTON:
Good morning mate. How are you?
RICHARD PERNO:
I’m well, I’m well, you’re in Brisbane. I appreciate your time.
I’ve just talked about the ballot that we’re going into tomorrow: the Referendum proposed constitutional alteration. The ‘yes’ or ‘no’, it’s a simple one, you and I have talked about this is as it has all ticked over. From the Opposition point of view, is there going to be – from your point of view – is there a winner tomorrow out of this, ‘yes’ or ‘no’, Peter?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, a couple of points. I mean one; I don’t think anybody should take a ‘no’ vote tomorrow as a rejection of a desire to help Indigenous Australians, in fact quite the opposite because many people who see the Voice as something no more than the fact that it’s going to complicate the system of government, it’s not going to deliver the practical outcomes; but I think there’s a positive element in terms of us having dodged a bullet. I think there’s a huge change to our system of government if the Voice gets up and it won’t be for the better. It’ll apply another wet blanket to decision making, it’ll slow processes of government down and heaven knows they’re slow enough already.
RICHARD PERNO:
Yeah. You’ve been against it since day one, haven’t you?
PETER DUTTON:
No, not since day one. I sat down with the Prime Minister and worked through some of the detail with him. I made it clear to him that I didn’t think Australians would support the proposition just on the vibe. I wrote to the Prime Minister in January of this year asking 15 questions which still haven’t been answered, and I think millions of Australians want those questions answered and I think that’s why now four or five out of 10 Labor voters are voting ‘no’.
So, there’s a huge issue that’s happened here where support’s gone from 65 to 35, or 45 per cent. Why has that changed? I think largely because the design of the Voice doesn’t start until next Monday, if it gets up on the vote tomorrow, and people just find that really weird. I mean, why wouldn’t you have the detail of what it is you’re being asked to vote for before the vote takes place?
RICHARD PERNO:
Yeah, that is a little odd.
I’ve talked about this, Peter Dutton, for a long time since it was all launched and since that vote was passed in the Senate, as you know, it was passed unanimously.
[excerpt]
SUE LINES:
I declare that the Senate has passed the Constitutional Alteration…
[end excerpt]
RICHARD PERNO:
So, the whole situation, has it revolved around a decisive discussion? Has it been a fair discussion, do you think, Peter?
PETER DUTTON:
I think there’s been a lot of emotion, understandably, in some of the commentary that’s been made, and I’ve constantly called for a respectful debate. I can respect the fact that people decide to vote ‘yes’ or vote ‘no’. I’ve strongly advocated a ‘no’ position as time has gone on, because it’s obvious that we just don’t get a chapter in the Constitution without understanding what it is. The nation rule book is a very important document and our founding fathers, I think were sending a very strong message to subsequent generations, including our own, that if you want to change the Constitution, you need a majority of states, you need a majority of Australians – so the double test needs to be satisfied. There’s no law that you can pass in the Parliament to out-manoeuvre the constitutional change, a provision in the Constitution.
So, there’s a lot at risk here, and I think that’s why Australians are hesitating and voting ‘no’ in record numbers, and I’d certainly encourage people to make sure that they get out and vote, make the effort, it’s a very important vote.
RICHARD PERNO:
Yeah, we’ve had, oh what was it, nearly two million plus? And I was just talking to the Australian Electoral Commission in Tasmania, Peter Dutton, and about 90,000, about a quarter of voters in Tasmania have already voted.
It seems on the surface Peter Dutton, quite a simple paragraph to add to the Constitution, doesn’t it? ‘To alter the Constitution to recognise the first peoples of Australia by establishing an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice?’, that’s all it says.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, it’s a really interesting question because the Solicitor-General gave advice to the Prime Minister, that the question, the wording, should be much tighter than what the government’s ended up with. The Prime Minister ended up rejecting that advice and he took the advice from Noel Pearson and others that the words should be very broad.
I think it’s important to make this point: the High Court can argue for years and years over a single word or the construct of a particular sentence to come up with the legal interpretation, and the form of words being proposed here are so broad as to give the Voice the opportunity to comment on every decision the government or the executive of the day makes. I think that is a very dangerous step because the High Court will be dealing with a lot of cases. People ultimately will say, ‘well hang on, the Voice has got its own chapter just like the High Court, so if the Voice expresses a view – it’s not just an advisory body like a Pharmacy Guild, or a union movement – this thing’s in the Constitution and if it expresses a view, you should have a very good reason as to why you reject the advice. I think that’s why the Prime Minister said early on, that you’d be a very brave government who rejected the advice of the Voice.
RICHARD PERNO:
Alright. It goes ‘no’ on tomorrow’s vote, Peter Dutton. What then?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, then we have to turn ourselves to how we can provide practical support and a change for people in Indigenous communities. There’s an awful amount of money – billions of dollars – tipped into the funnel in Canberra, but when it gets onto the streets in Alice Springs, it’s a trickle, and people who are most in need aren’t getting the support. When you speak to those Indigenous leaders, and mums and dads on the streets living in their communities in pretty difficult circumstances, they’re critical of the management and the lack of leadership by some within the community who have administration to the fund. That’s where I think we need to turn our attention.
I think both sides of politics have poured an enormous amount of money into trying to make a bad situation better, and we haven’t had the dial shifted like we would want, and I think it’s fair that the taxpayers ask that the money is being spent on those who are in need.
RICHARD PERNO:
But then the ‘yes’ voters and I’ve talked to Noel Pearson and many others in the ‘yes’ camp, including Linda Burney, Peter Dutton, and they’ve said to me, nothing’s progressed since perhaps even the Perkins drive to free, you know, the anti-discrimination laws in New South Wales in that Freedom Ride in the 1960s, 1967, there’s the Mabo Case. Nothing has happened to close the gap. Do you agree with that?
PETER DUTTON:
I don’t agree with that. I mean Noel Pearson and others – and they’re good people – they’ve been advising governments and they’ve had the ears Prime Ministers for 30 years. I mean we have health organisations that have been set up across the country that are Indigenous specific – non-Indigenous people can’t use those services, they’re dedicated to Indigenous Australians – that’s all been off the advice of people like Noel Pearson and others within the community.
Noel Pearson’s been head of the Cape York Institute and has been a very strong voice in Indigenous communities to adopt some of the education curriculum and programs that he advocates. I think it’ll be good to hear from a next generation of younger Indigenous people as well, of this debate.
I think most Australians accept the difficulties of our history and we should always be cognisant of that, but looking forward, we want those kids in Indigenous communities to enjoy the same opportunities and benefits that our kids do living in capital cities.
RICHARD PERNO:
So if it goes a ‘no’, you hope you mend those bridges? Can we still do it, in other words?
PETER DUTTON:
Absolutely we can. I think the Prime Minister could have had a unifying moment on Saturday if he had just put the question, ‘do you want to recognise Indigenous Australians in our Constitution?’. I think there would be 70, 80, 90 per cent support for that. The same sentiment that you spoke about in 1967, where there was overwhelming support from the Australian people.
But that’s not the question being put and there’s almost a tricky manoeuvre of trying to camouflage the Voice with talk of recognition, but people won’t be voting on two questions, there’s only one question. People, I think, including four or five out of 10 Labor voters, as I say, will vote against the Voice, and that is a very telling outcome.
RICHARD PERNO:
On one thing and it certainly has done Peter is caused discussion about this situation and closing the gap, and whether there is a huge chasm between Indigenous and non-Indigenous, so at least that’s raised that issue. We’ll have to wait and see tomorrow.
I know your schedule is very tight and I appreciate your time, but just a couple of quickies. The Middle East war: it’s violence, it’s a tragedy. There have been murders, there have been horrific incidences that we don’t want to go into depth because we’ve both read about all those, Peter Dutton. Are we going to help? Are we going to send any military aid to them?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, we need to firstly acknowledge the terrorism act that’s taken place. I do think it’s important to keep in mind the horrific detail – we don’t need to speak about it constantly – but we do need to bear it in mind because there are a lot of people from the Jewish community in Australia at the moment who are scared. They’re worried about sending their kids to school dressed in a Jewish school uniform, they’re worried about going to a synagogue, and the hate that we saw expressed at the Sydney Harbour gathering only a few nights ago – that is not the face of our great country.
I went to a gathering of 10,000 people from the Jewish community and others who are supporting them on Wednesday night at Dover Heights, and you know, there was an outpouring of grief and just a shock at the terrorist attack that had taken place by Hamas.
So, Australia should support our friends in Israel and we should stand up for democracy and decency and the depraved acts that we saw from Hamas – they deserve to be condemned.
RICHARD PERNO:
So, do we send aid?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, we certainly send aid and support if that’s what’s required, but Australia’s not going to be drawn into a military conflict in the Middle East. Our support can be delivered in other ways: if Israel requests munitions or defence materiel, support otherwise – as President Biden has pledged – then Australia should make it known that we would support those requests because the push back against Hamas is not anything other than what we have done in recent years to defeat the scourge of ISIL. The decapitations, the rape, the pillage that goes on…
RICHARD PERNO:
Babies too, Peter, babies.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, it’s just horrific. So, that’s the conduct, the treatment of women that we saw from ISIL – that our troops have been fighting against, and the Americans and the Brits and the Canadians and the French and everybody else, we’ve all witnessed these terrorist attacks.
The moral equivalence here of Hamas is not with the Israeli people, or the Israeli Defence Force, the moral equivalent of Hamas is ISIL. They’re depraved and sick individuals. Driving 260 young people from a music concert into the desert to slaughter them on top of everything else we’ve seen is an act that can’t go unpunished. We should spare a thought for those 150 plus who are reportedly still held captive and hostage, and those people need to be returned.
RICHARD PERNO:
Alright. Before I let you go, let’s go to a happy side of things Peter Dutton. I think you should be at the Royal Launceston Show right now.
PETER DUTTON:
I’d like to be mate. I was down in Devonport earlier in the week and I should have stayed on. I got in trouble when I went to the Brisbane show because I had a Dagwood dog there and it was an awkward photo.
RICHARD PERNO:
Oh no!
PETER DUTTON:
So, my media team is probably a bit reticent of sending me to any shows, but I hope everyone can get down. The weather was beautiful the other day, so I hope people enjoy a really nice weekend with their kids and, and yeah that’s…
RICHARD PERNO:
That’s it.
PETER DUTTON:
It’s good to finish on that note, it’s been a very serious week otherwise.
RICHARD PERNO:
I’m really glad you mentioned that – hug your kids, hug your family, call those that you love and let them know they’re in the best country in the world. Wouldn’t you agree, Peter?
PETER DUTTON:
Absolutely, 100 per cent, 100 per cent, Richard. We sometimes take for granted what we’ve got, but it’s worth protecting and that’s why we should be passionate about making sure it’s always the case. We’re lucky to live in the country we do, and we should never take it for granted.
RICHARD PERNO:
Oh yeah, better said.
Peter Dutton, Opposition Leader. Let’s see what happens tomorrow. You’ve been very generous with your time, as you always are with us. I hope you enjoy your weekend. Let’s see what happens tomorrow.
Thank you, Peter.
PETER DUTTON:
My pleasure, and you. Thank you.
[ends]