15 March 2023
Subjects: AUKUS; Aston by-election.
E&OE
RAF EPSTEIN:
Peter Dutton will be in Melbourne this afternoon. Peter Dutton, Leader of the Opposition, thanks for joining us.
PETER DUTTON:
Pleasure Raf. Thank you.
RAF EPSTEIN:
Is there a small part of you that wishes that it had been you there in San Diego announcing the deal?
PETER DUTTON:
Of course. It’s a lot of work that’s gone into AUKUS and full credit to the Prime Minister and to the Defence Minister because they’ve been negotiating over the course of almost the last 12 months. AUKUS was conceived of in 2019 and we really got stuck into the negotiations in 2020 and 2021. So there was a lot of work in the background and I’m really pleased that it’s come to fruition.
I think it’s important for us to be a strong partner in the alliance and it’s not just with the US and the UK, it’s obviously with Japan and with India, with other countries in our region, because I think the times dictate that.
So, we’ll work very closely with the government and make sure that it’s delivered on the timetable that they’re talking about, and I’m looking forward to that engagement, actually. Richard Marles has been very good to work with.
RAF EPSTEIN:
Have we just signed up to an arms race?
PETER DUTTON:
I think we’ve signed up to frankly the best chance we’ve got of maintaining peace in our region. It’s true through history that bullies don’t recognise or respect people in a position of weakness, and Australia can’t be in a position of weakness. We’re a small island nation in the middle of the Pacific and we need to make sure that we have strong allies, and we need to make sure that we’re part of a push that maintains the peace and stability that we all want in our region.
RAF EPSTEIN:
Can you just explain your thinking. We’ve never had a capability like a nuclear submarine, its ability to go undetected, its ability to carry weapons and soldiers if it needs to. To a lot of people, that sounds like a push to war, not peace. Why do you think it isn’t a push to war?
PETER DUTTON:
Well first point Raf, is it’s not a nuclear weaponised system, as President Biden was at pains to point out yesterday. It’s a nuclear propelled system. The technology now with nuclear technology – and you see this with the small modular reactors that the Canadians and the Brits and people across Asia and in Europe otherwise are plugging into their energy system – the reactor on the latest submarine means that it can be fuelled and enclosed when it’s built and you don’t crack that seal, it remains fuelled for 30 years, and it’s quite a remarkable technology. Obviously the design of the submarine has to be such that it can’t be detected in the water so it needs to travel quietly, and obviously it can do that. It’s zero emissions, it has the ability not to be detected, whereas the diesel submarine has to come to the surface and to snort, as they call it, which is the recharging of their diesel generators…
RAF EPSTEIN:
…I’m interested, as a former Defence Minister, why that is not more of a threat to China?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, it’s not a nuclear weaponised system. It’s a nuclear propelled propulsion system. So it means that the boat can go faster, it means it can do it more quietly, and the advice that we received was that the diesel technology would not be any use to us by around about 2040, because the technology that the countries are deploying means that when it comes up to snort, it can be detected and destroyed, whereas the nuclear powered submarine can sit at the bottom of the ocean for months at a time.
RAF EPSTEIN:
You would be putting yourself up as an alternative Prime Minister at the next election, you’ve sat on the Expenditure Review Committees, you’ve been Defence Minister. So, the phenomenal amount of money this deal will cost. When you were on the 7.30 the other night, you seemed to be saying that it’s kind of okay, you’ve got to, in some way you’ve got to cut corners with the NDIS, you need to make it sustainable. Why is it okay to cut corners on the NDIS, but not on defence?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, that wasn’t the point I was making at all. I think the government itself has pointed out in relation to the NDIS that there are difficulties in the design of the program, and I made the point in my budget in reply speech last year that we would be an Opposition – as the Howard opposition was to the Hawke-Keating government – one that would support sensible ideas.
I believe very strongly in the NDIS. It’s an absolutely essential part of our architecture. It provides dignity to people with disabilities, but the cost trajectory means that within its first few years it’s going to overtake the expenditure on the PBS. The whole of the system that’s been in place for a long period of time, and we just need to make sure it’s sustainable. It’s not sustainable if it falls over, and those people who are most in need, with the most profound difficulties and disabilities, won’t be able to get access to the system. So, they’re two separate issues that people are conflating…
RAF EPSTEIN:
…maybe if I can Peter Dutton, people think, ‘well, okay, the politicians, both sides, they’re willing to spend anything, whatever it takes on a submarine, but they won’t say whatever it takes on NDIS’. If someone’s hearing that, what do you say to them?…
PETER DUTTON:
No, I think it’s the complete opposite. I mean I made this point about aged care where I believe that we need to spend more money in aged care to provide people with dignity as they age. I think the aged care system is terribly broken, and again, if there are structural changes that the government needs to make to that system, then we would support that.
RAF EPSTEIN:
Peter Dutton’s going to be in Aston this afternoon. That by-election seat up for grabs in the Federal Parliament, that is two and a half weeks away – April the first. Yes, it is on April Fools Day.
Peter Dutton, an Opposition has not lost a seat to a government in a by-election for 100 years. Will the Aston result be a verdict on your leadership?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, it’s going to be a tight race, there’s no question about that. We’ve got a great candidate in Roshena Campbell. She’s got a good background, she’s a mother of three, she’s got a fantastic CV as a professional woman, she’s obviously had experience in local government. She’s a champion for the local community and by every account that I’ve seen in my interactions with her, I think the local electorate’s taken a real liking to her. They want a champion for their local electorate…
RAF EPSTEIN:
…but more people are going to know you than her, aren’t they? Is it a verdict on you?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, it’ll be a verdict on a couple of things. In a by-election, people know that they’re not going to change the government. So, there is a greater focus on the local candidate. That’s just an historical fact. The government’s in its first year, so it’s still in its honeymoon as well. It’ll be a verdict on the leaders, no question about that, and it’ll be a verdict on the campaign that both the Liberal Party and the Labor Party run on the ground. So, all of those will be factors and I’m happy for it to be a verdict on all of those things.
I think we’ve been a constructive Opposition. I think we have been responsible in the way in which we’ve entered debates. We have supported the government, particularly in relation to national security and foreign affairs matters, where it’s been important to do so, and you know, the Labor Party will continue to throw mud at me and that’s fine, but I think people can see through that and I’ll let people make their own judgements. But ultimately I think the bigger focus in a by-election is on the local candidate and the local campaign, and I think we’ve got the better candidate, I think we’ve got the better campaign and I think we can win the Aston by-election, but I do think it’ll be close.
RAF EPSTEIN:
Peter Dutton is the Opposition Leader. He will be in Melbourne this afternoon. Do you like what he is saying? 1300 222 774, you can text as well. Do you regret saying a few years ago that Melbournians were too scared to go at night to restaurants? That gets brought up all the time. Do you regret saying it?
PETER DUTTON:
Look again, if you put it into context, I was speaking to friends, dear friends in Melbourne, who were worried about the crime and law and order situation under Daniel Andrews at the time and it was a reflection of the conversation, first hand conversation, I had with people who lived in Melbourne. I wasn’t making a slur against anybody in particular other than to say that people were worried about some of the gang violence that was taking place at the time and that was a factual reality…
RAF EPSTEIN:
But do you regret it? I don’t know if you want to tell me if you regret it. I guess I’m trying to work out, the criticism of you is, you don’t get Melbourne. When you said that about the restaurants and not going out, you said that ‘police force was wrapped up in politically correct conversation it wasn’t interested in’. Last week you described tax on super as ‘socialism’.
I’m genuinely asking you, does that language and that approach and that attitude, do you think that is going to work in Melbourne? Saying people are afraid to go out, describing a tax on super as socialism? Is that going to resonate here?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Raf, I think there is a broad range of views, not just across Melbourne, but across Victoria. I’ve been to Melbourne hundreds of times over my time in Parliament as a Minister and in different portfolios. I have dear friends who live in Melbourne. We holiday in Victoria. I don’t have any problem and, I mean, when you sit back and look at it objectively, it’s a complete nonsense. I mean I make the same comments in relation to crime in other parts of the country where I do think people are in a situation where they want to go out and enjoy a night out. They want to come home and make sure that their family is safe. That’s not a reflection on Melbourne or on Sydney or Brisbane or anywhere else.
So, the point in relation to superannuation is that people have worked hard for their money. The government has provided incentives for people to put money into superannuation. It’s a difficult scenario because unlike any other investment, you can’t take the money out of superannuation until you’re of age pension age. The fact is that if you change the rules, and you start taxing people at a higher rate and distributing that income elsewhere, then I do think that people in Victoria, in Tasmania, in Western Australia have an issue with that. People have worked hard for their super, it’s their money and they want to make decisions because it’s their retirement and they want to have a dignified retirement.
If you want to make changes to superannuation, that’s fine and the Prime Minister’s perfectly entitled to do that, but take it to an election. Don’t go to an election promising one thing and then doing the opposite after the election, which is what the PM’s done. My only criticism is that if you’ve got an arrangement where people have lawfully put money – their money, into their superannuation – grandfather that arrangement, make the change prospectively and people can invest on that basis, and they can take it to an election so that they have a better say. I just don’t think that’s controversial. It’s certainly not anti-Victorian, I mean it’s just an absurd proposition.
RAF EPSTEIN:
Stuart Robert told the Robodebt Royal Commission that he was prepared to say false things because of Cabinet solidarity. If someone is prepared to mislead the public, should he be in your Shadow Cabinet?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Raf, the Commission of Inquiry is under way at the moment. I haven’t made comment in relation to any witness and evidence that’s been provided. That is a completely appropriate approach. I wouldn’t do it if it was in relation to Labor Ministers…
RAF EPSTEIN:
He said it under oath, didn’t he?
PETER DUTTON:
I’ll let the Commission of Inquiry draw their conclusions, make their judgements and then I’ll take appropriate action in relation to any individual if it’s required. So that’s the proper process and that’s what I will adhere to.
RAF EPSTEIN:
Thanks for joining us. Enjoy your time in Aston.
PETER DUTTON:
My pleasure Raf. I’ll speak to you soon mate.
[ends]