Subjects: Increase in domestic violence incidents; social media giants’ need to do better on online safety.
E&OE.
SARAH ABO:
Well, Australia is in the grips of a gendered violence epidemic. Until recently, an average of one woman was killed a week. In 2024, that figure has risen to almost one every four days. Thousands from across the country are planning to march in protest of domestic violence this weekend – Australians have quite simply had enough.
Let’s bring in Minister for Government Services and the NDIS, Bill Shorten in Melbourne and Opposition Leader, Peter Dutton in Dayboro in Queensland. Thank you both for your time.
Bill, I want to start with you. The system is failing women, it’s plain and simple. How do you see it? What are we doing wrong in this country?
BILL SHORTEN:
It is shocking and frustrating, and it’s – domestic violence is not new, and there’s been a lot of work done on it by a lot of people – but we’re not improving the numbers, as you said. One woman being killed every four days, and in many cases by people who claim to have loved them. It’s sick.
What we are doing is prevention. We are trying a whole range of measures on prevention, early intervention, crisis response and healing and recovery. This Government, which I belong to, has invested more than any previous Government. But you’re quite right, some men are not getting the message. It is up to men, as well as women…it’s up to men, in fact, to educate other men. Not all anti-women misogyny attitudes end in violence, but they all start from there. So it’s just we’ve got to do more and do better.
SARAH ABO:
Yeah. It’s just those attitudes. You just can’t understand why they even exist.
I mean Peter, these are mothers, daughters, sisters, aunts. None of them should be dead as we go to air right now, but they are. Instead of getting better, the situation is getting worse. I mean, where have we gone wrong in this country?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Sarah, I think in so many ways. And it doesn’t, you know, bear thinking about the circumstances that many women are living in now, short of that tragic outcome of a murder. People who are living with coercion around financial controls, obviously the physical and mental health issues that are part of their everyday life. Young girls, young boys who are growing up in those environments, watching that as well. Of course we don’t speak enough about what happens in some Indigenous communities as well. This obviously is a tragic circumstance, but it’s one of so many, as you point out.
There’s no lack of bipartisanship support. Every level of government wants to come together to do everything we can. There’s record amounts of money being put in each year. The New South Wales Government’s talking about bail laws at the moment, which I think is part of it, to keep offenders away from committing very violent acts, but there’s so much more before that has to happen as well. There are lessons from royal commissions that haven’t been learnt, but there’s great intent, there’s bipartisan support to do whatever we humanly can to resolve the issue, but as you say, society is failing at the moment.
SARAH ABO:
Bill, as you pointed out before, I mean your Government has poured $2.3 billion into women’s safety initiatives and support over the past few years. Yet here we are. You know, I was reading just yesterday about the Westfield Bondi trader saying the centre’s empty. Normally it would be packed with mums and kids during school holidays, but it’s empty because people are scared.
BILL SHORTEN:
Well, we did discuss that there are some public safety measures, including, I think supporting our police to be able to have a higher presence in shopping centres.
But, Peter used a word earlier which I think deserves to be focussed on. It’s the issue of coercion, another way is control. There are – I get that some men are unhappy with their lives, I can understand if their job isn’t working out, or if they’ve had childhood trauma, or they’ve just been brought up poorly not to respect women, but that is not an excuse to try and control your wife or your partner. I think we’ve got to look at how, when women are in a situation where they’re being coercively controlled, how can they get out of it? We’ve got to be able to help women take their kids to safety. I mean, the 10 days paid leave, that’s a modest proposition, but at least it lets people deal with some of their issues…
SARAH ABO:
Yeah.
BILL SHORTEN:
I think we’ve got to break the nexus where if a woman is in a hostage relationship with her idiot thug husband, that she doesn’t feel trapped…
SARAH ABO:
Yep.
BILL SHORTEN:
…And it’s how do we – the rest of us – reach out when it’s got to that stage?
SARAH ABO:
Do you know what? I just think people, I mean, we’re just so sick of talking about it and nothing actually happening.
You know, there are calls on the front page of the SMH this morning for a royal commission. You mentioned a royal commission, Peter Dutton, but the trouble is that’s years away if there are any recommendations. We need action now. I mean, police get greater powers when there’s a terror offence. Why can’t police greater powers when there’s a domestic violence offence?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I agree absolutely. Whatever powers are required. I’m sure there’s a position where the Minns Government, or whichever Government it might be, would support that. I think at the moment, there are significant powers under the domestic violence laws. It’s a question of what happens when people get to courts, it’s a matter of what happens with bail. But Sarah, it’s much more fundamental than that.
We’ve broken down the value of relationships in society, the influence of social media we haven’t spoken about, violent games that young boys are playing, those role models that are absent in their lives, the breakdown of relationships, we don’t teach enough financial management I think at school, and the root of some significant breakdowns in relationships is financially related because people just can’t balance the books.
SARAH ABO:
Needs a proper overhaul.
Alright, well, you did mention there, Peter, social media, right? In other news, the legal battle against Elon Musk and the eSafety Commissioner, X. I mean it’s all getting really ugly now. We saw the Bishop come out earlier and say, keep the video up there, I don’t mind it being up there. Where do you stand in terms of this argument, Pete? Because I know you’ve been a bit controversial siding with Elon on this one.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, that’s not the case Sarah. My view is that the laws are there, we introduced them when we were in government, to take down that sort of graphic, violent video, so that it doesn’t influence in many ways, other people here in Australia who might watch it. Now, I’d love to say that it could be taken down so that no kid across the world could watch it, but we strongly support the eSafety Commissioner’s position in relation to taking it down so that Australians can’t view it, but we can’t pretend that Australia can dictate to other countries around the world what people see within their countries, as we wouldn’t tolerate that here, that Russia could dictate what content is seen in Australia.
So, I just think we need to be realistic about what the options are here. We can’t police the whole internet across the world, but we can influence what happens in Australian society.
My basic starting point here is that the laws that apply in real life, should apply online as well. So, you wouldn’t publish graphic content, you would be sued by the regulators and people would take civil action of defamation against you if you said certain things on Channel Nine. Why is that allowed online? Why does Elon Musk and others allow the end to end encryption which protects the paedophiles and others online who are sharing images and videos?
SARAH ABO:
I mean, just very quickly Bill, to Peter’s point there about not being able to control the rest of the world, should we just focus on laws in Australia and preventing that kind of stuff being put out on platforms that we can access here?
BILL SHORTEN:
Well, there’s two issues. First of all, there’s our law and the Government supports the eSafety Commissioner. The Coalition created some of these laws.
Elon Musk is not trying – he’s not a free speech warrior for the world; I think he’s conflating issues about trying – an allegation of trying to control the internet globally. We’re not trying to do that. But this violent filth shouldn’t be accessible. He is contesting our interim orders, and then he’s sort of hiding behind another argument. Elon Musk is not a free speech warrior. If he was, he’d allow Twitter to be able to put up the movements of his jet, which he doesn’t. If he was really a free speech warrior, what’s he saying about his business interests in China when China disagrees with it? Elon Musk thinks he can tell Australia what to do, and we’re saying, ‘no, you don’t, Elon. You may run your company, but you don’t run Australia, and our laws, we’re sovereign, and if we want you to take it down, we expect you to respect that’…
SARAH ABO:
Alright.
BILL SHORTEN:
…And this argument that he’s trying to conflate it with everything happening in the world…
SARAH ABO:
Yeah.
BILL SHORTEN:
…Is just a bit of magician’s trickery.
SARAH ABO:
Strong words there Bill, and we know Elon loves a fight.
BILL SHORTEN:
It’s true.
SARAH ABO:
Thank you both so much for joining us this morning, appreciate it.
[ends]