Subjects: The Coalition’s plan to crack down on youth crime and online notoriety; youth crime and the age of criminal responsibility.
E&OE.
JACQUI FELGATE:
Today, the Federal Opposition announced their plan to crack down on youth crime involving social media. On the line now is Peter Dutton, the Federal Opposition Leader and a former policeman.
Thanks for your time today, Mr Dutton.
PETER DUTTON:
Pleasure Jacqui. Thank you.
JACQUI FELGATE:
Now, can you explain how this plan would work in cracking down on youth crime and social media? We’ve spoken to the Police Association here and their President, Wayne Gatt, he said that these young people do this for the likes. They commit these crimes specifically to post it on social media.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, that’s exactly what they’re doing, and you’re right, because the videos give them notoriety, gives them credibility with their gangs or with their peers.
What we’ve announced today is that we’re going to move a bill in the Federal Parliament, and we want to work very closely with the Government if it’s possible, because we want to give the eSafety Commissioner the power to pull the content down so that the videos or the photos can be pulled down. Secondly, we want to make it an offence to post them, or we want to stop people using social media, as a penalty. The technology exists there to be able to do it.
I was a policeman a long time ago, and most of the break and enters you would go to would be somebody breaking in to try and steal goods, or jewellery to try and sell that to feed a drug habit, now; kids are breaking into homes, taking photos of expensive handbags, or of elderly people in the background asleep, or distraught victims of crime, and that gives them credibility and notoriety online.
I think if we can remove that incentive to commit the crime – that is take away the social media element which they really live their lives by – then we can help the police just have an additional tool in trying to deter some of this crime from taking place.
JACQUI FELGATE:
So, what would the penalty be then? You’re saying up to two years jail?
PETER DUTTON:
Correct. So we provide for up to two years jail, but it also prohibits the person from – a potential penalty for the court to put in place is for the offender to be prohibited from using social media for a period of time as well.
There are algorithms and there’s technologies now where you can do that, even as people re-birth with a new phone, or they open up a new account, there are ways in which the police can bring that content down very quickly or close that account, and the eSafety Commissioner is given additional powers to be able to make a real difference as well.
JACQUI FELGATE:
So, can I give you a hypothetical example then: say a youth commits a crime, his friend or her friend uploads it to social media. Who’s in trouble? Is it the person who posts it or the person who committed the crime?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, it can really be both because at the moment if somebody aids somebody in the commission of a crime, so if the person has been a party to, even though they didn’t actually steal the car, but they’re driving in the car, they can be charged as a party to that offence. If the principle here is that posting the content is part of the crime and seeking the notoriety online through the social media video is part of the crime, and as you point out rightly, the incentive to commit the crime in the first place, then the person taking the video, I believe is just as culpable as the person committing the actual crime. That provides a deterrence for that individual as well. Now, there are protections and carve outs for the media and for other people who might have a legitimate…
JACQUI FELGATE:
Yeah. So, how would the media work then? Like, for example, if we were to receive the video, which we often do at 3AW here, and then we post it, what would the carve out be there?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I think it’s important that the media doesn’t post it. I know that there are a lot of hits and clicks…
JACQUI FELGATE:
What about freedom of the press though on that?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, no and we’ve erred on that side. We leave it to the discretion of the media, so it’s not an offence for the media outlets to post it. All I’m saying is, I think you end up giving the notoriety that these kids want. They tell their mates, they send the link, they tell them that they’ve been up on a news site, website, whatever it is, and I just don’t know why you want to give them that credibility.
JACQUI FELGATE:
Do you think we’re at this point now where we do have to come down harder on youth offenders? Because in Victoria it seems like we have a real reluctance to jail young people who have committed crimes.
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah look, I think some Governments make a deliberate decision to appoint Magistrates and Judges who have a particular inkling or learning. I think in Victoria, over a long period of time, particularly under the Andrews Government, but under the current Premier as well, there’ll be an inclination to appoint Magistrates who are civil libertarians and people who have a view, frankly, a world view which would be very different to many of your listeners, and that is that detention should be a last resort.
Now, nobody wants to see anyone locked up, but as we know, if there’s not a deterrence, if there’s not the ability for a penalty to be imposed, kids are out there stealing the car the next night and the night after that. The police obviously become very frustrated because they put the case together, they take it to court, and ultimately it goes nowhere.
There’s a human face to all of this crime, and it’s the victims who, in some cases live with the distress of wondering whether it’s tonight or will it be tomorrow night that a house will be broken into again, or our privacy invaded.
JACQUI FELGATE:
Yeah. Now can I ask you, as well, about the age of criminal responsibility here in Victoria. It’s due to be raised from 10 to 14 by 2027. That will be done in stages. As a former policeman, how does that make you feel?
PETER DUTTON:
I think it, again, is completely and utterly ignorant of the reality of what’s happening at the moment. For a child of that age, of 10 or 12 years of age for example, to be convicted, the police need to demonstrate that the child knew what they were doing was wrong. There are different tests that need to be met before a conviction can be achieved. The reality is, in many of those cases, kids won’t go into detention unless it’s the eighth, or the 10th time that they’ve stolen a motor vehicle, or they’ve committed an assault or stole something else of value.
So, it is a last resort, but if children at that age who are 10 or 12 years of age are out stealing cars and involved in crime, if they know – and they can work out pretty quickly that there’s no penalty that they’re facing – then they’re just encouraged to continue that life of crime. That’s not what you want for them, and it’s not what we want for society.
I don’t believe an increase, up to 14, against the advice of the police and others, reflects community values, and I think there would be a vast majority of Victorians who would be against that move.
JACQUI FELGATE:
The New South Wales Premier Chris Minns, has also made changes to youth bail, making it harder for teens to get bail. Are we in Victoria too weak on youth crime?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, if there are weak bail laws, again, the police are frustrated because they arrest somebody for what is a very serious crime of stealing somebody’s motor vehicle, which in many cases is the second biggest asset that somebody owns apart from their house. In that circumstance, the person they’ve arrested is leaving the watchhouse and back out on the street before the police have finished their paperwork.
Again, if there are reasons for bail to be granted and there are special conditions, fair enough, but if there is no deterrence, if there are no boundaries, there’s no penalty or consequence for your actions, then you’re more inclined to go out and commit crimes again. That’s why Premier Minns has acted, the Labor Government in Victoria’s acted, and we’ve seen in other states – where they’ve loosened and weakened the bail laws – an increase in that youth crime. There’s a direct correlation between the two.
JACQUI FELGATE:
What we’re talking about, particularly young children, though: 10 and 11 years old – I have an 11 year old daughter myself. A lot of experts would say that this does make them worse in the long run, when we talk about coming down with a harder fist.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, of course you don’t want kids of any age in detention, but it’s very difficult for a lot of circumstances that the police are faced with, and they’re dealing with the victims of crime, and they know that the kids of younger ages, tragically, and in some cases, the way that they’ve been brought up or the lack of values that have been taught to them or they just haven’t had the parental influence, like we would see in most families, the police still have to deal with those victims, and those victims are still suffering, in many cases, not just a financial loss, but as I say, the mental stress of the crime that they’ve fallen victim to.
There are all sorts of diversion programs and packages that can be wrapped around young individuals, but in some circumstances where you’ve got recidivist offenders, even at a younger age, where they’re continually stealing cars, breaking in, assaults, robberies, etc., etc., as a last resort somebody will go into detention because if not, as we know, many of those crimes escalate to something even more serious.
JACQUI FELGATE:
Peter Dutton is the Federal Opposition Leader. Appreciate your time this afternoon.
PETER DUTTON:
My pleasure. Thank you.
[ends]