Subjects: Major issues facing Australians; Labor’s cost of living crisis; fuel excise; nuclear power; Labor’s energy policy shambles; 2032 Brisbane Olympic and Paralympic Games; Food and Grocery Code of Conduct Review; life outside of politics; AUKUS Pillar II; home ownership; Labor’s big Australia policy.
E&OE
STEVE AUSTIN:
Well, my studio guest this morning is Peter Dutton. He’s the Federal Opposition Leader and Leader of the Liberal Party. He’s been elected to the House of Representatives eight times as a federal MP, he represents the electorate of Dickson on the north side of Brisbane.
We’re just over one year out from the 2025 election. So, Peter Dutton, I think this is the first time I’ve interviewed you as Leader of the Liberal Party. So, thanks for coming into studio.
PETER DUTTON:
My pleasure Steve. Thank you for having me.
STEVE AUSTIN:
A year out from the federal election, let me get you to define what you see, as say, the top three major issues facing Australia today.
PETER DUTTON:
Well Steve, I think the first one for many Australian families, and for a growing number of families is the cost of living pressures that they’re facing. People are paying higher mortgage rates, higher rates for insurance premiums, and their budgets are just much more difficult to manage, and that puts an extra pressure on relationships and on their small business if they’re in small business.
The second issue I think clearly is national security. When we look at what’s happening in the Middle East, when we look at what’s happening in Europe, the prospect of conflict in the South China Sea, or within our part of the world is a real possibility over the next couple of decades.
I clearly think that energy is one of the biggest issues that our country is facing as well. So, the transition to a new energy system, how we do that in a responsible way, how we can do it in a way that builds up jobs and economic productivity, as well as meeting our emissions reductions commitments and many other issues that affect individuals, including crime and law and order, but they’d be the top three that I’d nominate.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Isn’t cost of living – particularly around supermarkets and running businesses – directly related to international events? I mean one of the reasons why oil, or petrol, or diesel is so high, and it adds to everything from the supermarket to the family home; isn’t that something that can’t really be addressed by an Australian Government because it’s so heavily affected by international events?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, certainly affected by international events, but in the case of fuel for example, the excise is getting up toward 50 cents a litre – so that’s a direct government taxation decision made by both Parties over a period of time…
STEVE AUSTIN:
Would you change that?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, at different times it’s been reduced to help people with cost of living pressures. It’s expensive to reduce it, but there is an argument around it. So, you could contemplate that…
STEVE AUSTIN:
Would you?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I think you’d have a look at the prevailing economic circumstances at the time and whether or not that was in the best interest of the economy – and people more generally – and you would weigh it up against other possibilities, through tax cuts, or spending elsewhere within the budget that you thought might be prioritised, and that would be a decision that you would make at the time if you were in government. So, certainly something you can contemplate, but there are other factors that are influencing the cost of living pressures at the moment, which are homegrown, and the Reserve Bank Governor’s pointed this out.
Interest rates have gone up 12 times since May of ’22, and the inflation here, the core inflation is higher than what we’re seeing in comparable nations. So, that is an issue and it’s an issue because, in part, the energy policy is feeding into an increased pricing structure. So, farmers are paying more for their fertiliser, which is energy intensive in its production, they’re paying more for cold room storage, the glass manufacturers are paying more for their electricity, and therefore the price of glass jars go up and packaging, etc.. So when you go into the supermarket, all of that feeds into higher prices.
STEVE AUSTIN:
That’s known, and there are attempts being made to deal with that. The state of Queensland is rolling out massive renewable energy projects. I mean really serious money to tackle that and trial hydro energy – sorry not hydro, sorry hydrogen energy projects with Fortescue – one which was opened in Gladstone recently. The Coalition appears to be going down a very different path, of one that’s looking seriously at nuclear energy. Where would you put a nuclear power station in Queensland?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, a couple of points just to understand, by way of background, how we got to this point. We’re in favour of renewable energy, very strongly so. We’re in favour of hydrogen, hydro, battery, and obviously solar and wind. The difficulty is that we have to have a firming up of that power – so there needs to be a 24/7 power source because otherwise the lights aren’t on of a night time and…
STEVE AUSTIN:
Isn’t that what the two pumped hydro projects will be in Queensland? In Gympie and Mackay.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, they can in part provide support, but where you’re contingent on the weather, there’s a vulnerability, and this is the problem we’ve got at the moment. The Prime Minister is talking a lot about Australian jobs, which is fantastic, and having that economic productivity here, and more Australians employed in solar panel manufacturing or manufacturing more generally, but the reality at the moment is that businesses are going offshore to Malaysia, where they’re paying a third of the cost of electricity, to the United States, where nuclear states there are offering huge discounts on electricity and gas to businesses, and they’re moving from Australia into those other markets. So, we need to make sure that we get the transition right.
I don’t believe the Government’s got a credible pathway to their commitment that they’ve made to zero emissions by 2050, and when we look at the G20 countries – Australia obviously is one of those top 20 economies in the world – 19 have either adopted or have committed to adopting nuclear as a baseload power as a 24/7 power. Australia is the only one that doesn’t. So, that’s how we’ve got to this position.
To answer your question directly about where they would be, we believe that you should utilise the existing distribution network…
STEVE AUSTIN:
So on the site of an old coal fired power station is where you put a nuclear…?
PETER DUTTON:
And importantly, Steve, because you’ve got the ability to distribute that power through the existing poles and wires.
The Government’s policy is contingent on 28,000km of new poles and wires being installed, and we know that by 2034, 90 per cent of the baseload power – that is coal and some gas – comes out of the system. So, we’ve got a pretty rapid period to deal with some of that. Gas obviously is going to play a bigger role. The Labor Governments at the moment, particularly in Victoria, and here in Queensland, are negotiating to extend the life of coal fired generation, because they know that the new system of just relying on renewables is not ready.
STEVE AUSTIN:
My guest is Peter Dutton.
On this issue of solar energy, the Prime Minister Anthony Albanese, has said he’s going to spend $1 billion of taxpayers’ money on making solar panels in Australia, in direct competition with China, where the price of solar panels has plummeted. Is that money well spent? He wants to try and create industries here. Is that a good spend? $1 billion of taxpayers’ money for something like this?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I like the aspiration of being able to build more in our country. I think during the course of COVID, we demonstrated, like most countries, that we needed to make sure that our supply chains were more secure, that we didn’t have the vulnerabilities prospectively in the system that saw disruptions to house building, to infrastructure, to medical supplies, etc.. So we should be trying to put more into an Australian made product, wherever that’s possible.
I think it’s very unlikely that the Prime Minister achieves the aspiration here in relation to solar panels, and I think many economists have pointed that out. Just the relativities, the scale that you see in China, the wage differential, the cost of regulatory burden here in Australia, etc..
My vision for our country is to make sure that we have an energy system that works, because without it, the business will not stay here and the manufacturing will continue to go offshore, and that’s why I think you can have the greatest of aspirations…
STEVE AUSTIN:
So, cheap energy costs equals good manufacturing?
PETER DUTTON:
It does, no question and the…
STEVE AUSTIN:
And we don’t have that today?
PETER DUTTON:
We have some, and interestingly, some advanced manufacturing is coming back into Australia, but largely where there’s a reliance on robotics and a reduced reliance on labour costs, because Australia has very high labour cost relative to China or Malaysia or elsewhere.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Okay. My guest is Peter Dutton. This is ABC Radio Brisbane.
I want to ask you a couple of questions that have been taxing the state Government here in Queensland. That’s the issue of the Olympics in 2032 – the Olympic and Paralympic Games. If there was a change of Federal Government, would a Federal Government led by the Coalition keep the funding commitments made by Anthony Albanese for the 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games?
PETER DUTTON:
Yes. I mean we committed to it and the bid was launched and won during the period of the Coalition Government. We provided funding commitments to then Premier Palaszczuk. We want to see it to be a great success. I mean it will be fantastic, not just for Queensland, but for our international reputation as well. I think the Government’s tied itself in all sorts of knots at the moment, and I think the Premier’s trying to find a political outcome. I don’t believe that the proposal that’s on the table at the moment is sustainable, and…
STEVE AUSTIN:
So does that mean you would fund or assist in funding of a new large international standard stadium for the Olympics?
PETER DUTTON:
Look, as I observe it, and I don’t have all of the information and the costings available, so with that caveat, it’s clear to me that Victoria Park is the best prospect. That legacy, the precinct that you create makes us an international city, and the economic productivity that you would generate through events at that particular location, I think would be very significant.
Having bus – you travel back and forth from Mt Gravatt – it’s not a feasible prospect, and I understand the argument about cost, and it’s a very legitimate one to make, but there are ways in which that can be offset. There’s a discussion to be had about the future of Boondall etc., but I think very strongly that we need to get this right. We’re running out of time, and I know that…
STEVE AUSTIN:
Would it be an embarrassment for Australia if we didn’t build a large international standard stadium for the Olympics?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, we need to have a stadium and facilities fit for purpose.
The inclusion of cricket, for example, is a wonderful opportunity for regional Australia, regional Queensland, to be showcased as well, and we’ve seen that in other Olympics, where you move beyond the city limits. There’s a huge opportunity there for tourism, for Australia to be put on the map, and for Queensland to really shine. That’s the opportunity, but we can’t do that with a second rate facility.
STEVE AUSTIN:
My guest is the Federal Liberal Leader Peter Dutton. This is ABC Radio Brisbane. Steve Austin’s my name.
The supermarket inquiry, the grocery code of conduct is now being reviewed by Craig Emerson – the interim report came out yesterday. You supported the idea in contravention, in opposition to what David Littleproud, the National Party Leader, seemed to be arguing. He says they’re looking, or seem to be keen on breaking up the majors, you say no. What is your position, or the Coalition’s position on the supermarkets and their incredible dominance in Australia? But surely that feeds into the cost of living issues that you raised up front?
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah, well Steve, first point, I don’t think there’s any difference between what David Littleproud and I are saying on this issue. In fact, only a few weeks ago, we announced that we would look at the divestiture power, which operates in the US, the UK, and comparable markets, as well.
One of the concerns that I’ve got is that you now have a property development arm associated with both Coles and Woolies, which means that they’re locking up blocks of land and stopping their competitors from taking up a position where they can compete against the Coles or Woolies site. You’ve got established practices where property managers go directly to Coles or Woolies to use them as an anchor tenant to get finance for a development site. Now, maybe that’s appropriate, maybe it’s not. But if it provides, in a particular geographic location, an outcome that means other competitors are excluded from that area, then I do think that is a failure in the way in which the market is operating.
So, I want to see healthy competition so that consumers can get the best price possible. We’re a population of only 26 million people, and we’re obviously geographically diverse and there are scale issues – I understand all of that – but I think if IGA, Aldi, other players are being excluded from markets, then that is not in the consumer’s best interests, and in the circumstance where you’ve got Coles or Woolies who have tied up a particular suburb, or a particular region, to the exclusion of the other providers, then I think it is appropriate that you look at the divestiture power so that you can have proper competition within that market, and that’s not controversial…
STEVE AUSTIN:
If you do it in supermarkets, why not do it in things like banks as well, who also have massive dominance and power in Australia?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, one of the differences in relation to the supermarket space, is that you’ve got – particularly for fresh food providers, predominantly farmers and agriculturalists – you’ve got big scale and big investment that they need to make, and they almost become monopoly purchasers or their agreements entered into with those farmers, so that understandably from Coles’ or Woolies’ perspective, they can have a continuity of supply. It puts though, a power imbalance in play between Coles and somebody who’s manufacturing or producing beef or sheep or whatever it might be. So, there are differences in the supply chain issues around the supermarket model, which make it quite unique.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Peter Dutton is my guest. We’ll continue our conversation in just a moment.
[TRAFFIC BREAK]
STEVE AUSTIN:
Right, thank you very much. It’s 12 minutes to nine. Peter Dutton, Leader of the Opposition and Federal Leader of the Liberal Party is my guest.
I promised my listeners I would ask you some more personal questions.
The Government and Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has, for some time, been trying to, or seemingly frame you as a ‘hard man’. You know, ‘a former Queensland copper who likes a bit of bif’ sort of thing. I’m parroting slightly.
PETER DUTTON:
Just slightly, yes.
STEVE AUSTIN:
And well, they used to describe you as ‘Leader of the No-alition’. I’ve never heard you – I mean, unless I’ve missed it, really answer that. Are you a hard man, Peter Dutton?
PETER DUTTON:
I think we’re all a product of our upbringing and our experiences. I think most people who know me, my mates from school, my family obviously, would say that I’m a pretty down to earth person. I like to think that I haven’t changed much since I was elected back in 2001…
STEVE AUSTIN:
Because when they frame you as a former Queensland copper. That’s actually code. It’s almost like a euphemism.
PETER DUTTON:
No, of course, of course. I mean, they use it in a pejorative way.
Look, I just think people will make their own judgements. I’m a very compassionate person, I’m very passionate about a number of issues. I’ve fought for a long time on, particularly protection of women and children. I feel particularly passionate about that because I think kids should be able to enjoy the sanctity of their childhood and have the best start in life possible. But, that means that, I guess there’s a tough side in terms of making sure that people know that there are boundaries. Kids or young teenagers who are stealing cars at the moment, just being released on bail and out to steal the next car is not something that I would accept. Now, if that makes me tough, I suspect it’s probably consistent with the view of most people in society.
The jobs I’ve had in Immigration, in Home Affairs, in Defence – they’re all tough portfolios. I mean, my mum will say to me, you know, ‘you’ve got to smile when you’re on TV’, and I say, ‘well, mum, that’s great advice. But, you know, I’m not going to crack into a joke or a routine halfway through a press conference on what’s happening in Ukraine or what’s happening with the terrorism level, or there’s been a terrorist attack or threat, etc’. So sometimes..
STEVE AUSTIN:
Mothers are always quick with advice.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, they’re quick and generally their advice is good and should be heeded, which makes for a much happier next conversation. But look, I’ve got an amazing family and I think that’s the most important thing in life.
I’m very fortunate to be in the position I am, as Leader of the Party, and I care very deeply about our state, about our country. There are lots of things that I want to do as Prime Minister and that’s my task over the next 12 months to explain that in detail.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Do you ever cook at home?
PETER DUTTON:
I do, but generally – I do a seafood chowder, which I pride myself on, but my…
STEVE AUSTIN:
Does your family likes seafood chowder?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, they like it more than roast lamb, which is my favourite meal. So, quite often I offer to cook roast lamb for myself, but that sort of guilts an outcome. But no, I’m the only one who likes roast lamb, strangely. So, generally I’ll be on the…
STEVE AUSTIN:
That’s almost un-Australian.
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah. It is strange, actually. Should have been part of the pre-nup, but I should have worked that out that Kirilly didn’t like lamb. So, generally I’ll be thrown to the barbecue, and, we had a nice family barbecue the other night for my nephew’s birthday. So, I did a nice chicken rotisserie on the barbie, which was good.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Do you ever do any housework?
PETER DUTTON:
I do housework, yeah, yeah. I do, I enjoy…
STEVE AUSTIN:
Hang on…
PETER DUTTON:
No, no.
STEVE AUSTIN:
…Hold the front page, a man does housework at home!
PETER DUTTON:
That shouldn’t come as any surprise. I do enjoy ironing, I’m quite meticulous about my shirts. So, Kirilly normally says, ‘well, you do it then if I can’t do it right’. Which is not my argument, but her interpretation. So, I enjoy a bit of ironing, and cleaning up. I’ll wash up, pack the dishwasher, and importantly, unpack the dishwasher. Hopefully my teenage children are listening – that’s an important lesson. I enjoy getting out into the yard as well. And a nice, sort of, clean line, straight lines in the yard. My mowing’s a good thing…
STEVE AUSTIN:
So, you’re a control freak? You like control?
PETER DUTTON:
There’s a little bit of OCD in part of it, I’ll confess that. But yeah, when I get time, I enjoy it.
STEVE AUSTIN:
I’ve asked a lot of my political interviewees what they are influenced by, and I think I’m asking things like podcasts. What are you listening to? If you have time, by way of podcasts?
PETER DUTTON:
I don’t listen to many podcasts, but I read a lot.
STEVE AUSTIN:
What are you reading?
PETER DUTTON:
I’ll read – I’ll try and consume as much, obviously domestically – and I normally get up at about 4.30am and read the papers from across the country, but also international websites. So, just understanding what’s happening elsewhere in the world, what is happening in terms of policy, but also current affairs.
I find, for example, if I go to the gym in the morning or go for a walk or run, a podcast is just sort of an extension of work. I actually like that clearing of the mind to be part of the physical activity, as much physical as mental, just clearing the mind. I think if you’ve got headphones on listening to a podcast, it is just another hour onto your workday. I enjoy a bit of music, or just the peace and quiet of getting out and having a walk early morning.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Peter Dutton, Federal Liberal Leader’s my guest.
Back to some pressing issues. Japan is officially being considered as a potential collaborator on another pillar of the AUKUS Defence Agreement. Would you support that? Would the Opposition support that?
PETER DUTTON:
Yes. I think it’s a great outcome and I congratulate the Government on what they’ve done. When we established AUKUS, there were two pillars, the first being the nuclear propelled submarines, the second being the technology piece.
A lot of Australians just don’t see it, obviously, day-to-day, but the work that we’re doing in space, the work that we’re doing with artificial intelligence, the underwater autonomous vehicles, all of that is part of AUKUS Pillar II. The Japanese are incredibly important allies. They’re facing their own…
STEVE AUSTIN:
They have a lot of historical baggage with the Chinese, don’t they? In the 1930s, they were appalling in conflict.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, there’s been a history, as you point out, between China and Japan for a long period of time. But what we’re seeing between China and the Philippines at the moment, we’re seeing between China and Japan at the moment, the butting up of the vessels against the Coast Guard vessels from Japan or from the Philippines, etc., that’s happening on a daily basis, in their case in the East China Sea. So, there is an enormous motivation for them to be with like mindeds.
India is the other very important partner, in the Quad at the moment, who I think will play a bigger role, maybe not in AUKUS…
STEVE AUSTIN:
Traditionally not aligned, though?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, they’ve been obviously very close to Russia for a number of reasons. But they’re in a battle, a physical battle literally, on the Himalayas border between China and India at the moment. They’re very concerned about the aggression from China.
So, our job is to join up with like minded partners to make sure that we can keep peace in our region, and to make sure that our relationship with China grows, our trading relationship grows, but nonetheless, there are sovereign issues that we need to deal with, and we need to stand up for our values and what we believe in, and do that with like minded partners like Japan.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Four to nine, news at nine. Peter Dutton is my guest.
I’ve spoken with a number of politicians on your side of politics, and they’ve all raised the issue of housing. Some of them tell me that they think that a conservative Coalition Government will never capture new, younger members, or for that matter, increase the vote amongst women until you actually find a way of getting more Australians into their own home. This is a major headache. It’s quite clear Australia’s going to miss our housing targets, the Master Builders today have come out and said Anthony Albanese’s targets we’re falling further behind. We’re not even catching up. You know, I’ve not heard you sort of state a clear plan as to how to solve this nightmarish problem of getting someone into their own home at an affordable price, Peter.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, Steve, I agree with you in terms of it being a totemic issue. It kills me that young Australians have lost the dream of homeownership, and there are many Australians today, who have financial independence and stability in their retirement because of the fact that they’ve had home ownership core to their asset base right through their working life. They’ve worked to pay a house off, they’ve renovated, they’ve bought and sold, whatever the case might be. I want to make sure that that dream is alive and well for young people…
STEVE AUSTIN:
So, how do we do it?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, it’s a policy that we’re working on at the moment. If you look at the last 10 years, except for the two years of COVID, the number of new housing builds, or new dwelling builds has roughly matched the number of people coming in through the migration programme at about 170,000. In the last two years, it’s gone up to five or 600,000 people coming in through the migration programme, and the housing builds, as you say, have flatlined or come back and that’s…
STEVE AUSTIN:
So, our immigration levels have created our housing problem?
PETER DUTTON:
It’s contributed very significantly to it. There’s no question about that. So, when you see young kids who are lining up for a rental property 40, 50 deep, that is because we’ve got huge demand and limited and contracting supply.
STEVE AUSTIN:
So when will we see your policy solution?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, in the not too distant future. But at a federal government level, we’ve been very good at fuelling demand, so providing support appropriately to first home buyers, but because the councils have the planning regulations and the State Governments run the planning laws, it’s hard for the Federal Government to influence that supply side; but we must find a way to, not just continue to provide support on the demand side and help those young people into housing – which I absolutely agree with – but also to provide incentive on the supply side so that we can get more housing built and those people can find their pathway to economic security as well. There’s a huge difficulty in our society, as is the case in other Western communities at the moment on this issue. We need to get it right, and I think it’s one of our top priorities.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Thanks for coming in.
PETER DUTTON:
My pleasure. Thanks Steve.
[ends]