Subjects: The Prime Minister’s shocking betrayal on the stage three tax cuts; the Prime Minister’s lack of leadership and credibility; Labor’s cost of living crisis; the Coalition’s push for real tax reform.
E&OE.
SARAH FERGUSON:
Peter Dutton, welcome to 7.30.
PETER DUTTON:
Thank you Sarah.
SARAH FERGUSON:
Was it humiliating for you to have to stand up and support Labor’s changes to the tax cuts?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Sarah, we stood up for people that we want to see given assistance. It’s $15 a week, it doesn’t start until July and it addresses some of the damage that Labor’s done to the economy – cost of living pressures are really acute for families – so, we listened to that, and we acted upon it.
I would have much preferred to have done both; what the Prime Minister had committed to and our own version of stage three, because there’s more significant reform there, but in the end you couldn’t afford to do both.
SARAH FERGUSON:
Alright. Well, we’ll come back to what you’ll do in a minute, but just to be clear here, you’re the ones waving this through. You said that backing the tax cut is to support families who need help now. That sounds like the Leader of the Opposition describing good policy.
PETER DUTTON:
We had stage one, stage two and stage three, so we’ve already put into the system about $200 billion worth of tax cuts. I think it’s important to remember, too, that the Prime Minister’s been elected now for just over 18 months, people are paying 27 per cent more tax now than they did when he was first elected. They abolished the LMITO and the support that we had in place. So not only did we provide support through stage one and two, but the Prime Minister made changes which increased taxes for Australians.
That’s why a lot of families, not just because of their mortgage increases, and petrol prices, and every other cost of living pressure that they’re experiencing, but also because they know that there’s not real wage growth and their purchasing power is going backwards with inflation, and they’ve got a Prime Minister who jacked up taxes.
Now, he’s given some of that back now…
SARAH FERGUSON:
Yes.
PETER DUTTON:
Not all of it, I might say, but nonetheless, they need support because they have had two budgets now where Labor has put extra pressure on those families.
SARAH FERGUSON:
As you just said, you’ve made that argument. But we’re clear now that we agree that this is a good policy and you support it. So therefore, the question flows from that: do you give credit, actually, to the Government for taking a big political risk in breaking a promise in order to help those families?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Sarah, I don’t think it’s your job to push the position of the Government…
SARAH FERGUSON:
It’s absolutely not. This is an outside observer saying…
PETER DUTTON:
I wish it was.
SARAH FERGUSON:
…is this political courage? Well, I’m going to reject that absolutely.
This is a question about whether you, as a political observer, acknowledge there is some courage involved in breaking a promise, incurring all of the criticism that they receive for that and will continue to receive in order to help families?
PETER DUTTON:
I think the Prime Minister promised the Australian public on 100 occasions he supported legislation, he went to two elections with a particular policy. I think what he’s done now is not provide substantive tax reform that will address bracket creep – as the Treasurer pointed out on your own show, they did this with the Dunkley election contest in mind. The Prime Minister would see a big swing against him as…
SARAH FERGUSON:
Not sure that’s what the Treasurer says but um, said…
PETER DUTTON:
He would see, the Prime Minister would see a big swing against him as a significant blow to his leadership. So, if you’re suggesting that that’s admirable, that he’s acted in his own political interests…
SARAH FERGUSON:
I’m not making a judgement on whether it’s admirable or not. I’m asking you to reflect, on whether it shows…
PETER DUTTON:
I’m answering your question of whether I think I should agree with your praise of the Prime Minister.
SARAH FERGUSON:
Not my praise, just a question.
PETER DUTTON:
I think the Prime Minister has decided that he wants a political fix for Dunkley. I don’t think that’s disputable. I think it’s absolutely the case that they’ve made a political decision.
Now, we had stage three tax cuts. Stage three, as I say, because we delivered $200 billion worth of tax cuts through one and two, and the reform that stage three brought allowed us to address some of the bracket creep concern. Every economist points that out.
SARAH FERGUSON:
Let’s just come back to bracket creep because it’s a tricky, complicated topic, and I don’t want to snow the audience. So, let’s go at that slowly. I just want to stay with this subject just for the moment.
To be clear, what you are doing is you’re criticising the Government, you’re impugning their motives, while supporting their tax cut. That’s right, isn’t it?
PETER DUTTON:
We’re supporting taxpayers who are doing it tough under this Labor Government…
SARAH FERGUSON:
The Government’s version.
PETER DUTTON:
We always said that there would be a tougher time for Australians with a Labor Government. They’ve had two budgets where they’ve made bad decisions, they’ve driven up inflation. As a result, people’s mortgages are staying higher. Australians, we know under this Government, are paying probably about $24,000 a year in after tax dollars extra because of the 12 interest rate increases. They’re also…
SARAH FERGUSON:
That’s not within their control.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, absolutely within their control because as the Reserve Bank Governor has pointed out, this is a home-grown problem, and the fact that our inflation…
SARAH FERGUSON:
Not entirely a home grown problem.
PETER DUTTON:
Well again, it’s not for you to apologise for the Government or explain their position.
SARAH FERGUSON:
I’m not apologising for the Government. I’m simply reflecting the views of economists around the world…
PETER DUTTON:
Sure.
SARAH FERGUSON:
Who would acknowledge that we are dealing with a global inflation problem that then adds some domestic elements to it. I’m just stating the case as is widely expressed…
PETER DUTTON:
As you know, core inflation is higher than any G7 nation.
SARAH FERGUSON:
But I don’t think we should be arguing about the causes of inflation at this moment in the interview.
PETER DUTTON:
No, but you put it to me whether or not the Government needs to be praised, and I don’t believe that breaking a significant promise in the way that the Prime Minister has, for his own political purposes, deserves to be praised. Now, you might have a different view, but that’s my view.
SARAH FERGUSON:
I understand that, let me put it in these terms: I think what you’re saying is this is good policy, you agree with it, you would do the same thing, I assume. But you’ve certainly supported this.
So, why do you get to support it for the right reasons, but you have to impugn the Government’s motives for doing exactly the same thing that you are supporting?
PETER DUTTON:
We had money that was hypothecated, set aside for stage three tax cuts. The Prime Minister’s taken that money and he’s put it into other tax cuts. We are the Party of lower taxes, and Australians are struggling at the moment under a bad Government.
The decisions they’ve made has made it more expensive for families to balance their budgets, for small businesses to survive and many people are facing very significant stress within their own households. The Prime Minister has made a judgement, to take money from that which had been legislated, into another form of tax cuts. We support it on the basis, not of supporting his lie, but of supporting families who are hurting as a result of bad decisions he’s made.
SARAH FERGUSON:
Not supporting the lie, but you are supporting the policy?
PETER DUTTON:
The families. The families who deserve that money.
SARAH FERGUSON:
But the families get that money because of the policy.
PETER DUTTON:
And they won’t get it until July – as you would point out – you would have been critical of the Prime Minister of that last night in the interview, I didn’t get to see it, but I’m sure you would have raised that point as to why it’s not starting until July, given that families are facing that pressure now.
I think the Prime Minister’s motives are absolutely transparent, and I’d be surprised that good journalists aren’t pointing it out.
SARAH FERGUSON:
Well, let’s talk about what you’re going to do, because you’re now in the position where you are waiving through the Government’s tax cuts – and whatever you say, that’s a painful moment for any Opposition Leader, but you have said that you will bring a new tax policy to the next election.
If you’re going to reinstate those tax cuts for wealthier Australians, as you’ve indicated that you will, the cost for that is $9 billion. How do you propose to pay for that?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, again, that’s a question put by the Labor Party. So, I think as I pointed out yesterday, you would have seen my press conference…
SARAH FERGUSON:
If I may, I do want to push back against the characterisation that that is a Labor point. The cost of those tax cuts that you are going to reinstate is $9 billion…
PETER DUTTON:
Well, there’s a remarkable coincidence in the arguments you’re putting to the Government’s arguments…
SARAH FERGUSON:
Well, let’s not argue here.
PETER DUTTON:
Let’s put aside the coincidence.
SARAH FERGUSON:
Let’s agree on what we can agree on: reinstating those tax cuts comes at a cost of $9 billion. The question is how do you pay for that?
PETER DUTTON:
But again, Sarah, don’t represent what I said. I was very clear in the press conference yesterday that we want additional tax cuts because we think that Australians are under significant stress. By the time that we get back into Government, it’s always the requirement for a Liberal Government to clean up a Labor mess. The damage that they’ve done to the economy is significant: the record numbers of businesses going broke, of people losing their jobs, etc., and people that just can’t keep their head above water. So, there will be support that’s required for many Australians to get back into a position that they were in, frankly, before the Prime Minister was elected, so…
SARAH FERGUSON:
But to be clear, you are talking about reinstating those tax cuts for the higher income earners that were originally part of your stage three plans?
PETER DUTTON:
What I said yesterday was that in keeping with stage three, which is – and an essential principle of stage three was to address bracket creep – we will make announcements once we know the fiscal position in the run up to the next election. There’s a budget, obviously, in May, the Government’s talking about taxes on, as we know, superannuation. They’ve already done that in the last budget. They’re talking about changing the negative gearing settings. They haven’t properly ruled out changing the taxation arrangements in relation to the family home, and we don’t know what they’ll do with trusts and with frank dividends as well.
So, let’s see what the fiscal settings are and what they do in the budget and what money is available, and we can make those decisions and we’ll make the announcement about what our tax package will be at that time, and we’ll know what quantum is required to be funded each year. But I think it’s prudent to do that in the run up to the next election.
SARAH FERGUSON:
That I accept that that’s not an unusual position to take. However, just on one of the details. So, one of the things that happened in the stage three tax cut changes is that the Government reinstated, or is now keeping the 37 per cent tax bracket. Do you expect that you will take that tax bracket away as you had intended?
PETER DUTTON:
Well again, let’s see how much money is available – $9 billion a year is a lot of money – but this Government spent an extra $209 billion over the last 18 months, which is a big part of why there’s domestic pressure on inflation, and that’s I think been acknowledged by the Reserve Bank Governor, who points out, as we said before, that home grown inflation is the problem at the moment.
SARAH FERGUSON:
I want to talk about the week that you have had because, thanks to the intervention of a former Prime Minister, you found yourself having to say to the gallery, I quote, ‘have you found me to be a thug?’. That is an astonishing question for an Opposition Leader to ask the press, isn’t it?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I was asked a question by a journalist whom I’ve known for many, many years, to respond to that comment. I asked the journalist who knows me well, had she ever found me to be a person of that character? Of course she hasn’t, because it was a fabrication and it was a self-serving comment.
I don’t think anyone’s scared of ghosts, I think everyone moves on, and I think frankly, the Australian public is so moved on from that era, it’s not funny. We are a united Party. I lead a Party which is incredibly united, more so than any Opposition in recent history on either side of politics, to be honest. I think we put ourselves in a good position to win the next election, not just because we’ve got a bad Government that needs to be voted out, but because we’re working day and night on policy offerings that we will provide to the Australian public in the run up to the next election, which I think will put us in a winning position.
SARAH FERGUSON:
Let me just ask you about that though, because that comment that you had to respond to, plus this seeing you standing up and supporting the Government’s tax changes, which you kind of wanted to do. Do you feel it’s been – I guess what I’m saying is it’s been a difficult first week for you here. Do you feel also that your political momentum is slipping away?
PETER DUTTON:
I just think it’s such an ABC perspective, if I might say. All the culture that’s so far left within the ABC just seems to permeate through many questions when you go on to a program like this. That’s the difficult…
SARAH FERGUSON:
Let me ask why you would characterise it in those terms. If we look at the situation, there’s wide spread agreement…
PETER DUTTON:
I think you’re the only journalists that’s putting that analysis there, apart from The Guardian, apart from some of the other leftwing online publications. The fact is that we are more united than ever in the Liberal Party. Nobody’s looking backwards. We are holding the Government to account. The reason the Prime Minister has acted to break his promise and to lie to the Australian public is because of the pressure that we’ve put him under.
SARAH FERGUSON:
Well, let me ask you this question. Let me put it in a different way, because we’re not going to agree on decent grounds for talking about political momentum. And I should say, the Prime Minister rejected the same proposition as well. So, it does cut both ways.
How big an argument was there in Shadow Cabinet about this decision to abandon your principle on stage three and support this policy?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, it was a discussion about what options we had in relation to supporting stage three as we had proposed, because the Government had taken that money and put it toward their own plan, and it was a significant broken promise. I don’t think the Prime Minister will recover his credibility. I think the Australian public look at him in a very different way now. I think some people…
SARAH FERGUSON:
What about you in Shadow Cabinet? How much resistance was there to taking that?
PETER DUTTON:
I’m not talking about Shadow Cabinet.
SARAH FERGUSON:
But to taking that position, to roll over as it were, to agree to back wholeheartedly the Government’s policy?
PETER DUTTON:
The Shadow Cabinet was unanimous in the position we took…
SARAH FERGUSON:
I beg your pardon, I did meet the Party Room at that stage…
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah, and similarly in the Party Room. I mean there was limited discussion in relation to the position we took. There was nobody who pushed back against, or argued differently than what we took to the Party Room and people saw the pragmatism and, the reality of the situation that we faced. I want to tell people that they don’t need support, but under this Government, of course they do. That’s the reality.
SARAH FERGUSON:
Well, let me ask you a question about – let’s finish on policy, because I want to get away from this idea that we are debating any points here from a particular political perspective.
PETER DUTTON:
I guess just in terms of your point though, if I might challenge it a little further. We’re 52-48 in Newspoll at the moment…
SARAH FERGUSON:
In the midst of the cost of living crisis, shouldn’t you be leading?
PETER DUTTON:
I can tell you Sarah, there are very few Governments, who at this term in this cycle, would be in the position that Anthony Albanese is in, and…
SARAH FERGUSON:
What about you? We’re in the midst of a raging cost of living crisis. Every pollster in the country says it’s the one message coming through. Shouldn’t you be leading in the polls in the midst of such a situation?
PETER DUTTON:
My numbers have gone up something like 20 points over the last 12 months – which not something that you would acknowledge in this program – but that’s the reality. The Prime Minister has…
SARAH FERGUSON:
We acknowledge every truth as it appears.
PETER DUTTON:
I wish it were true.
The Prime Minister has a greater net unfavourable number than I do. Not something you’d point out. So, I’m perfectly comfortable with where we are. I think we’re in a strong position, we have a united team, we have a weak Government, we’ve got a Prime Minister, who if you think is not under challenge, ask yourself why he trashed his reputation and dispensed with the position he promised to the Australian public on 100 occasions. He’s a person under pressure, there’s no question about that and…
SARAH FERGUSON:
Let me come back to where I was going there…
PETER DUTTON:
…that’s a scenario where we are now.
SARAH FERGUSON:
Let’s end on a question about policy, because just about every tax expert in the country – not every one, but just about – says we need to shift the burden from income tax. I asked the Prime Minister this as well last night. Didn’t get an answer from him. Would the Opposition advocate for a tax summit to pursue real tax reform?
PETER DUTTON:
I did yesterday, and I’ve said this in my last two Budget In Reply speeches that we are willing to sit down with the Government. I’m very much shaped by the Howard and Costello era, when I first came into Parliament – I was the Assistant Treasurer at that point. Very happy to sit down with the Prime Minister, we’ve offered that bipartisan support. I’ve met with Bill Shorten in relation to the NDIS and helping to make that a sustainable program.
We’re willing to conduct ourselves in the same way that Howard did in Opposition and work with the Government where they’ve got sensible suggestions that are in our country’s interest.
SARAH FERGUSON:
Peter Dutton, thank you for a lively debate. I enjoyed it. Please come again. Thank you.
PETER DUTTON:
My pleasure. Thank you.
[ends]