Subjects: The Matildas; the Coalition’s positive plan to improve sporting infrastructure and promote female participation in sport; the Prime Minister’s big talk on housing; the Prime Minister’s divisive Voice; the ABC.
E&OE
RAF EPSTEIN:
Peter Dutton is the MP for the seat of Dickson – north west of Brisbane – and he is the Opposition Leader. Good afternoon.
PETER DUTTON:
Good afternoon Raf.
RAF EPSTEIN:
Just on the events overnight in Fed Square here in Melbourne, Peter Dutton; do you think people in Melbourne can feel safe going back to a place like Fed Square?
PETER DUTTON:
Yes, yes, of course I do. Look, I think the main thing is from last night to concentrate on the amazing effort of the Matildas. I think the legacy now that they leave out of the World Cup campaign is quite a remarkable one. I think there will be literally over time, hundreds of thousands of young girls and young boys who take up sport in a way that they wouldn’t have, and I think the effort, the way in which they have engaged with the public has been quite remarkable.
RAF EPSTEIN:
Did we all underestimate how popular they would be?
PETER DUTTON:
I think so, yeah. I think that’s a fair point. I think obviously if you look at participation for kids under the age of 15, soccer’s incredibly popular – probably more so with a lot of mums who are worried about the contact sport of AFL, or rugby league, or rugby union – and soccer’s taken off for a number of reasons. But I think for us now, the question is how do we pay tribute to that? How do we build that legacy? The announcement that we’ve made of $250 million to put into local clubs to increase the standard of the amenity and make sure that girls have proper change rooms, I think that’s an important part of paying respect to the success that they’ve had.
RAF EPSTEIN:
I’m sure people are appreciative of the money, but do you think people will trust you after the debacle of ‘sports rorts’?
PETER DUTTON:
Look, you know, I mean people make their own judgement. All I can say is that the policy that we’ve put forward requires local clubs to contribute 20 per cent themselves, which means that they’ve got skin in the game and they will try and eke out maximum benefit for their club and members. I think there’s a benefit for a lot of families, because this work will have to be undertaken anyway – you can’t have young girls changing, you know, in cars or in between two open doors in a car park before they go and play soccer or cricket or whatever it might be – so I think there’s a lot of pressure to get a maximum return for the investment being made and I think the mistakes of the past obviously are learnt as well.
RAF EPSTEIN:
Do they count against you? Do you think people hold them against you? I’m sure people will text and say, ‘why would we trust you?’ Do you think they count against you?
PETER DUTTON:
Ah Raf, to be honest, I think most people move on pretty quickly, and I think again, most people concentrate on the 99 per cent of good, not the elements of the government program that could have been managed better – your political opponents always make the most of that – but I think most people – like the discussion around car parks, I’ve got to say one of the biggest issues in my electorate has been an investment in carparks because people are parking up on footpaths, across driveways when they’re going to work in the morning by train, and people are very appreciative of the fact that you’re investing into local infrastructure, and I think that will be the same in relation to what we’re proposing.
RAF EPSTEIN:
I think I’ve asked you about Coalition promises and car parks before, so I do want to try to move on though.
Housing, which is clearly the biggest issue for so many people at the moment. The PM says he and the Premiers and Chief Ministers had some answers yesterday. If the Coalition had nine years and homeownership went down while you were in power, isn’t it worth giving the PM’s ideas at least a try?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Raf, we’re very happy to support ideas. The PM, as you know, last October announced an aspiration of a million homes. Now, that is not going to be realised. He’s now saying that figure should be 1.2 million, which won’t be realised either. So, provide support and encouragement, but there needs to be a tinge of reality here to the PM. I think most Australians now are working out the PM’s a good talker, but just not a great doer and I think…
RAF EPSTEIN:
…just on his idea Peter Dutton, the states, if they go beyond that million, they’re going to get a bit of cash every time they release the land for the house beyond the million. You talked about ‘skin in the game’ before with the community grants for sports grounds. It’s a good idea isn’t it? Say to the states ‘future years: you deliver the house, you get the cash’. That could work, couldn’t it?
PETER DUTTON:
If they can follow through. I just think you’ve got to pay on results, and we’ve seen over the course of the last 12 months under this government that first home sales have gone down by 37 per cent. When we were in government there was something like 149, almost 150,000 new home starts each year and that’s gone down to 95,000 under Labor. So, I think you just need to deal with the reality.
Labor always has wild aspirations, but they can never manage the economy or money and families end up paying for that, and I think at the moment you’ve got a situation where there’s not enough stock coming on. I was listening to Peter Malinauskas, the South Australian Premier early today – the Labor Premier – to his great credit, he’s talking about a reduction in taxes to provide support to first time buyers, he’s talking about bringing on an unprecedented amount of land, or development approvals and that’s what works. It is frustrating, I mean to the PM’s defence and to the defence of, you know, even the Liberal Government when we’re in power, there’s only so much at a federal level you can do on the supply side. You’ve got two other levels of government…
RAF EPSTEIN:
Home ownership went backwards under you though, didn’t it? You spoke there about the record and the PM’s track record. Home ownership went down under the Coalition, it didn’t go up, so that’s worth looking at as well, is it?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, if you look at the success that we had in the First Home Buyer Scheme, as I said before, the new starts, the housing activity. I just question how you slice and dice some of those numbers because…
RAF EPSTEIN:
Although they are ABS numbers from the end of ’22.
PETER DUTTON:
Part of the frustration at a federal level is that we’re able to provide incentive on the demand side and the states and local governments have authority on the supply side. If you can get the three coordinated and working together, then that’s a better outcome because it is impossible for a lot of young people to get into homes given the prices and given the deposit that’s required, the stamp duty and the costs otherwise. But you don’t want to be driving up prices at a time when you’ve got limited supply. So, if there’s a coordination and there’s an outcome, it’s I think one of the most important issues our country faces at the moment and, you know, we support the government in good endeavours.
RAF EPSTEIN:
Peter Dutton is who you’re listening to. He is the Opposition Leader. I’ll get to your calls soon. 1300 222 774 is the phone number.
Peter Dutton, if you look at the history of Referendums they pass when both major parties support the change. It was a significant decision for you to choose ‘no’. If the ‘no’ case wins, you can take a lot of the credit for that, can’t you?
PETER DUTTON:
Raf, a couple of points. I mean, one is that I think every Australian wants a better outcome for people in Indigenous communities. You see what’s happening in Alice Springs or Laverton, Leonora in WA, Tennant Creek, Katherine; it breaks your heart to see young kids living in squalor. It breaks your heart to see the level of unemployment, dysfunction, sexual assault, domestic violence in those communities. So, I think everybody – the Prime Minister and I included – want a better outcome for Indigenous Australians.
The question, as it often is, is what’s the best pathway to get that outcome? I think the Referendum will fail because the Prime Minister has failed to provide the detail to Australians. I think they’ve taken too much influence…
RAF EPSTEIN:
But it will also fail because you opposed it. I don’t think anyone has had the credit for it?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, there are 29 per cent of Labor voters who are voting ‘no’. That’s not because of anything I’ve said or done.
So, I’ve taken a strong position after looking at it carefully, asking questions respectfully and weighing up what it is the PM’s got on the table, and I don’t believe it’s in the best interests of our country. I don’t believe it’s going to provide the outcome for Indigenous Australians that we want, and that’s the judgement of one in three Labor voters.
There are many aspects as to why I think it will fail. I believe very strongly in constitutional recognition and I hope that the Prime Minister, frankly, can have a change of mind and propose that question instead of the Voice in October. That would be a unifying moment for our country. I think 80 per cent of Australians would support recognition in the Constitution…
RAF EPSTEIN:
Well, that actually leads to my next question, Peter Dutton. Most Indigenous groups don’t want just recognition, most Indigenous groups – and of course there’s a divergence of opinion within the First Nations community – but most Indigenous organisations and most First Nations leaders want a Voice in the Constitution. They want that precisely because they think politicians like you have proven you will not listen to them. So how do you answer them?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Raf, I went up to East Arnhem Land – I’ve been up there twice in the last 12 months, so this is Yunupingu’s land and sadly, tragically, he’s passed away recently as you know – but you look at the function within that society, the leadership he was able to provide, the governance that they have in place, they have a relationship with the Bauxite Mine – in fact I think they now own the Bauxite Mine – they get $30 million a year in royalties, they apply that money to housing, they’ve got a 90 per cent attendance rate at school…
RAF EPSTEIN:
And yet his dying wish was a Voice in the Constitution.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, you look at his legacy on the ground, and that is to create a housing company, they’ve got a building company and their example is one that I think could be rolled out across the country. There are other areas where there’s not the governance…
RAF EPSTEIN:
I’m sorry to bring you back to my question Peter Dutton, but all of those things you cite clearly are the sorts of things a lot of First Nations communities would love.
How do you address that sort of central point for the ‘no’ campaign? I think it’s a tough argument for you to address. If most Indigenous organisations, most Indigenous leaders, in the extensive consultation say the way to get more of the things you are talking about is having a Voice in the Constitution. How do you dismiss that majority opinion?
PETER DUTTON:
Well again, I’ll just come back to the point I was making because I’m leading to, you know, what I think is an important point to answer your question, Raf. I think the example is there for us to follow and it involves the voice of Indigenous people, elders, women, grandmothers, being listened to. I accept that principle.
The problem is that the words that have been put aren’t going to be acceptable to the broader Australian public in my judgement, and that’s the mistake that the Prime Minister’s made. They’ve been too influenced by the ’99 Referendum where they claim too much detail was given and they think that by starving detail people will just vote for this on the emotion of it. That’s not the case and that’s the major flaw in the Prime Minister’s argument, and I think he should reassess where he is and go with the reconciliation question because that’s where the majority of Australians are.
Despite good wishes, good intent from Indigenous, non-Indigenous leaders, you can’t be at odds in a democracy with the majority and the majority of people don’t support what is a failed proposition by the Prime Minister and I think there’s no escaping that. So, we proposed…
RAF EPSTEIN:
Well, we’ll see, I mean that’s the poll, isn’t it? We’ve got a few months to go yet.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, and I don’t believe that it’s going to get up, but as you say, there’s months to go and you don’t take anything for granted. But I do think – I’d just make this point quickly – I do think that there is support for constitutional recognition, and I do believe strongly in listening to local voices. I don’t agree with putting it in the Constitution, as the Prime Minister’s proposing, which is why we’ve said, as Calma-Langton said, a local and regional body to advise government is important, and that was actually the first step…
RAF EPSTEIN:
Yeah.
PETER DUTTON:
…As recommended to the Prime Minister, which he didn’t take that advice.
RAF EPSTEIN:
But there’s a big difference between you and your Coalition partner. You believe in legislating that, David Littleproud doesn’t. Your hands are tied, aren’t they? The Nationals don’t support your solution.
PETER DUTTON:
Well again, I mean the National Party came out against the Voice before the Liberal Party did and they’re a separate Party Room, they’ve got their process to go through. So their Party Room will resolve their policy position.
RAF EPSTEIN:
But you are the Coalition. You are the Leader of the Coalition. I don’t need to tell you that.
PETER DUTTON:
That’s true. But as I say, the National Party Party Room will go through their processes to arrive at a final position.
But I’ve been clear, I support constitutional recognition, I believe it’s important to listen to local voices, but the way the Prime Minister’s proposed the words means that this Voice will have a say on every area of government endeavour, and I don’t believe that that’s going to deliver the outcomes to Indigenous people in remote and rural communities that we would like to see.
RAF EPSTEIN:
Both Lidia Thorpe and Warren Mundine are on the ‘no’ side. They both though support different versions of a Treaty, either a national one or, you know, sort of local community ones. What do you think? Treaties and reparations, are they things you are open to?
PETER DUTTON:
No, I’m not. The practical outcome I want to see is on the ground in those communities. I want to see young boys and girls live a life where they’ve got the innocence of their childhood, they can have a life like we would expect for our kids in capital cities or outer suburbs, and I want to see those kids go to school, I want to see their connection with country, I want to see a celebration of indigenous culture. I don’t want to see the prevalence of sexual assault or domestic violence that we’ve seen. I want to see people properly housed and with opportunities to go into jobs. I think we need to be realistic about the problem that’s before us and that’s the priority I see.
RAF EPSTEIN:
Two quick questions: I think the ABC’s covered the voice excellently, do you think the ABC’s covered the voice well and impartially?
PETER DUTTON:
Oh I don’t watch enough of the ABC, Raf, to be honest.
RAF EPSTEIN:
Surely you’re usually listening to ABC radio, Peter Dutton.
PETER DUTTON:
I’ve gone a bit off the ABC. I can tell you, I read the transcripts, Raf, I’m a devotee to the Raf Epstein program, but apart from that, it’s pretty shabby. So…
RAF EPSTEIN:
So, you think the ABC has been shabby on The Voice?
PETER DUTTON:
I used to listen religiously to QandA, to 7.30 Report, to ABC News and…
RAF EPSTEIN:
All excellent programs.
PETER DUTTON:
And they were, they were.
RAF EPSTEIN:
Are.
PETER DUTTON:
But I think they’ve gone off the rails a bit, and I think there is a little bit of sort of maybe unintended bias, but nonetheless a little bit of shrouded bias in some of the reporting. I do think there’s room for improvement, but it’s our national broadcaster, it’s important, but do I think they have been impartial and a great judge of the public mood? No, I don’t, Raf.
RAF EPSTEIN:
We’ll get you into the studio next time and we’ll continue that conversation.
PETER DUTTON:
I look forward to it. Some of the re-education can take place.
RAF EPSTEIN:
Robust discussion, Peter Dutton, not re-education. Thank you very much for your time. Have a great arvo.
PETER DUTTON:
Thank you mate. Take care. Bye bye.
[ends]