Subjects: Federal Budget; Budget in Reply; cost of living pressures; single Parenting Payment; the Coalition’s plan to let people on fixed incomes keep more of what they earn; JobSeeker; migration; Julian Assange; Victorian Liberal Party.
E&OE.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
On Tuesday, the government hands down its second budget and it could temporarily put the budget back in the black. But the government has been at pains to remind us that it’s a delicate balancing act between the cost of interest on debt it must service as we face a cost of living crisis. Interest payments on Commonwealth government debt will cost the federal budget $112 billion over five years. That’s about $60 million a day. The Opposition Leader will be watching closely and provide his own response and vision for the country on Thursday next week when he delivers his official reply. And he’s my guest this morning. Peter Dutton, welcome back to the programme.
PETER DUTTON:
My pleasure. Thank you.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Next week we can see the first budget surplus in 15 years, a surplus delivered by a Labor government. Should that money be used to help Australians struggling to survive?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, Patricia, we’ll have to see the assumptions in the budget that indicate that they’re going to return to a surplus. But I think it’s obvious now that and I think it’s predictable that there will be a surplus. The revenues, ironically, from royalties, company tax receipts, etc., are through the roof and the government obviously has a big spending program. But we’ll wait to see the detail. I think most analysts now would expect there to be a surplus in the budget next Tuesday.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
So far you’ve not announced a lot of policy announcements. Some have been critical about that. Is this budget in reply, going to be a significant moment for you where we really get a clear indication of some really strong policy responses and where you want to take the country?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, a couple of points. I mean, the government’s not 12 months old, so no opposition’s released its full policy manifesto within the first year of being in opposition. The whole idea of opposition is to work on new policy, to catch up with stakeholders, to reconsider your vision for the country, and then present that in an election campaign which is still 18 months, two years away.
I’ve already announced a policy, for example, in relation to us wanting more flexibility for people on fixed incomes. So that is those people who are on a pension; on an Age Pension, Veterans, those that want to work a few more hours a week because their electricity bill’s gone through the roof and to do that without there being an impact on their pension. That’s a very big policy and a big change to the way in which the welfare system works. So, we’ve announced that policy, we’ve obviously announced other policies, not just in the budget in reply speech last October, but since then and we’ll have a few more things to say on Thursday night and to detail a bit more about our approach, our values, and where we see the direction of the country.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Let’s get to some specific measures that we definitely know about that will be formally announced on Tuesday night but, you know, were all but confirmed. You were a junior minister – in fact, it’s when we met – in the Howard government in 2006 when the government that you were part of changed the rules to put single parents onto the lower unemployment benefit when their youngest child turned eight. Now we know the government’s going to change it back to 14. Will you support the payment being restored for those parents?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, Patricia, we’ll wait to see the detail, because there’s a lot of budget speculation. Like you, having been in and around budgets for a long time, sometimes journalists get ahead of where the government is, and the announcement doesn’t quite match the rhetoric in the lead up to the budget. So, I think we’ll keep our powder dry until we get the detail from the government instead of the speculation…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
But, you know the idea, the idea of single parents who are living on these unemployment benefits that are low, raising children. Do you philosophically support that being risen so that they are able to get an extra $100 a week?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I’ll just make this general point. You need, as has been the case for Liberal and Labor governments, to get the balance right in terms of providing assistance to people who can’t find work. We’ve obviously got a very tight labour market at the moment and there are very many vacancies that are open that can’t be filled. So, in the system you need to provide support to those who don’t have a capacity to work but if people do have a capacity to work, then you need to provide incentive for them to take those jobs up. Particularly for younger people, because you end up in a spiral very quickly if you’re unemployed for a long time and, you know, there’s lots of evidence presented to government over a long period of time in that regard…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Sure. But if you’re a parent…
PETER DUTTON:
…but you want people to lead a dignified life and you want people to have support, particularly if they’ve got young children, particularly if their single parents. It’s just a question of getting all of that right in the context that, as the government points out, there’s a lot of government debt, interest rates are up, so it’s costing a lot more to service that debt, and the government will have pressures to spend money all over their areas of responsibility, so there will be a fine juggling act, as there always is with the budget, and we’ll wait to see the detail.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Yeah, you just made a point about a dignified life and it is strong language you’ve just used. I mean, if you’ve got an eight year old at home and you’re put on the unemployment benefit, I don’t know, you’ve had eight year olds, I’ve had them, I’ve had two that were eight, I wouldn’t want to leave them at home. Was it a mistake in the first place to take it in the direction you did?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, again, Patricia, I mean, you’ve got to get the balance right. We need to provide support to people and to do that because we’re dealing with other people’s tax money and people have worked hard for that money and they expect it to be spent efficiently. So they want to help those who are most in need, including people with eight year olds or, you know, young toddlers and kids who are a bit older than that. But equally, there’s an expectation that if there’s work available and you’re offered a job, that you take that job, and there are instances at the moment where you go around the country talking to businesses where they just cannot get staff and so the country loses that productivity, the economy loses it, people lose the opportunity to have that job. There needs to be incentive, not disincentive in the system to take that employment up and that’s the balance that the government will be trying to strike. Don’t forget that there were many changes, including by Wayne Swan and Julia Gillard, in relation to taking money away from single parents.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Absolutely. It started under the Howard government, ended by the Gillard government. This government looks to change it again.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, it continued under the Gillard government…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Will you stand in their way?
PETER DUTTON:
…I think your point is that it continued under the Gillard government. They didn’t bring it to an end, which is why it’s now on the table for discussion under this government. So, let’s see what they say and we can respond from there.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay, but you’re not ruling it out? You have some sympathy for single parents?
PETER DUTTON:
Of course I do. Of course I do. Clearly, in relation to people who are on fixed incomes at the moment, which is the whole idea of the policy that I just referred to a few minutes ago, they’ve got a fixed income and rising household expenses. The power prices the government’s projecting in the last budget, remember only last October they were saying that power prices would go up by 56 per cent and that’s the case from the 1st of July predictions are that power prices can go up by another third. If you’re on a fixed pension and you don’t have the ability, because you’ve got young kids, for example, to go and work extra days, your bills are still going up and how do you pay for that?
This was our idea in relation to people who are on an Age Pension. If you want to work, and a lot of people look who, you know, had a gutful of work, can’t wait to get into retirement, three or four years in think ‘oh, you know, I wouldn’t mind just a bit of balance. Maybe I’ll work a day or two’, and then decide not to do that because they end up losing a big part of their pension. So, you can provide an incentive, particularly in a labour market where there’s demand for that labour. You can allow those people to go into a job to work without there being an impact on their pension. So there’s a net overall benefit and that’s good for the economy as well.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Yeah. Let me take you to another specific thing that we know will be in the budget. How about Jobseeker for over 55s? Do you support an increase for that cohort on that payment?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I think the Treasurer was pointing out the other day, they need to be careful about what inflationary impacts the budget will have and that will be what they’re weighing up. Again, there’s been speculation on this measure, but we will wait and see what the government announces. So, they will be very careful, or they need to be very careful, particularly if they’re running a surplus budget, which they should, given the revenues that they’re going to receive.
They need to be careful that they’re not taking with one hand and giving with the other. So, at the last election, the government promised an increase in real wages. That hasn’t happened because inflation is above where wage growth is at the moment, so people are going backwards and that includes people on payments, including JobSeeker. So, you can understand that there is a need for additional support. It’ll be a question of whether that additional support leads to inflation, that increases interest rates or keeps them higher for longer and people end up just paying out with the other hand, and that’s obviously a societal-wide impact. So, they’re all the decisions that the Treasurer will be balancing at the moment with the government, and we’ll wait to see what they announce and respond from there.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
I want to take you to immigration and you’ve been critical of the government’s migration policy, saying that it’s a ‘Big Australia by stealth’. So, what number would you like to see? In 2017 you worked to reduce the migration intake from 190 to 170. Would you like a cap of 170? Is that what you’re backing?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I look back at the long term run, not just in the Rudd-Gillard-Rudd years, which I think is instructive as well, but back to where the Howard program was, the principle that Kevin Rudd had, that John Howard had, that Scott Morrison had, was about two thirds skilled, one third unskilled in the migration program. Migration’s a wonderful thing for our country. We’ve been a great beneficiary of migration in our country. The point that I’ve made is that if you’re going to dramatically increase the number as the government’s proposed, you can’t, you know, on the other hand, in reduced spending on infrastructure, you need to plan for people’s arrival. We’ve got, as we know, an instance at the moment where people can’t get into rental accommodation. I think the HIA figure is something like 178,000 new homes will be built over the next year, but you’ll be bringing in something like 7,000 people a week in the migration program, and there’s already not enough supply of housing for the demand that exists in the domestic economy.
So, my point is just that I think if you’re going to increase migration, then you need to have the planning, the infrastructure, because people know now that they’re sitting in congestion on the way to work this morning. They’ll be sitting in the same congestion on the way home this afternoon, the buses are packed, it’s difficult to get a park at…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Oh, people are frustrated, that’s for sure.
PETER DUTTON:
…and so that planning needs to take place before you dramatically increase.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
So, should there be a hard cap? And what do you think it should be?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, again, I mean, these are decisions that governments can make because they’ve got all of the advice from Treasury and the central portfolios and we can make an announcement in relation to that as our policy closer to the election. But I think now is the time, frankly, to be providing support to communities to help them deal with the infrastructure pressures that they’ve got, and yet, the government’s announced that they’re going to pull money out of infrastructure projects, out of road and public transport projects at exactly the wrong time.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Just a couple of other questions, Peter Dutton. The Prime Minister is in the UK, as you know. He’s told the ABC there’s nothing to be gained by the continued detention of Julian Assange and he’s worried about Mr Assange’s mental health. Are you also concerned?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, of course I’m concerned for him at an individual level and this issue has gone on for a long time and I think the Prime Minister…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Too long?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I think it’s gone on for too long, and I think that’s the fault of many people, including Mr Assange, to be honest. But the matters, I think, have to be dealt with, and if the Prime Minister’s charting a course through to an outcome for that, then that is a good thing and there’ll be a lot of sensitivity around the discussions, so probably doesn’t help to publicly speculate on it too much, but they’re the issues that we normally work with government on behind the scenes and Australians in difficulty anywhere in the world is not something you want to see and governments provide support to citizens every day.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
I know that you would have not missed quite a controversial story erupting out of the Liberal Party in Victoria. Controversial MP Moira Deeming has initiated legal action in an attempt to formally challenge her nine month suspension from the Victorian Party Room. What do you make of her decision to legally challenge it?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, the whole mess needs to be sorted out sooner than later and it needs to be mediated as a matter of urgency so that the Liberal Party in Victoria can get back to its core business. There’s a corrupt government in Victoria and there is a lot of, I think as you move around Victoria, talking to Victorians, a lot of people who frankly have had a gutful of Daniel Andrews and the government and the decisions that they’re making and the Liberal Party should have been more competitive at the last state election, they weren’t, and they need to be a credible alternative government and an effective opposition…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
And they’re not right now, are they?
PETER DUTTON:
Of course they’re not, and they need to be an effective opposition to put pressure on a corrupt government. I think, whilst we’re a distraction away from Daniel Andrews, he gets away with more stuff day by day and the Liberal Party needs…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
So, how can it be mediated?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, that’s an issue for the Victorian Division and it needs to happen, as I say, sooner than later.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Is a federal intervention on the cards? It happened in the Labor Party in Victoria? Is that on the cards?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I think we can look at all sorts of options. My interest is in getting the matters that are in the press at the moment resolved, because it doesn’t help our brand, it doesn’t reflect on the broader Party movement and there is a lot of good going on within the Liberal Party despite what you might read and hear on different programs, and it’s a distraction and it needs to be dealt with and the core business needs to be attended to.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
And you say there’s a lot of options, a lot of options that you could pursue. I just want to take you to that. Is a federal intervention something you would pursue if they can’t sort it out?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I wouldn’t rule out federal intervention. And I make it very clear to the Victorian Division that I want this mess sorted out as quickly as possible. People have been elected to represent their constituencies and the vast majority of members in Victoria at a state level, the issues that we’re talking about, they are effective local members and good local members. I don’t detract from that, but their job is to keep the government to account and they can’t do that when they’ve got internal noise…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Is it hurting you and the federal Liberal Party?
PETER DUTTON:
Of course it does. It hurts the brand and that’s why needs to be sorted out. It needs to be mediated so that they can get back to their core business of putting pressure and a spotlight on a corrupt government. It is quite a remarkable government that Daniel Andrews is running and not in a good way.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
I respect politically that you want to keep attacking Daniel Andrews, I get it. But I just want to take you to the problems of your Party because I can actually ask you that…
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I think I’ve been pretty frank and given you a response already.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Oh, you have been, absolutely. So, how can they mediate it. Do you have any strategies? Have you talked to John Pesutto?
PETER DUTTON:
All of that will be done behind the scenes and I’m not commenting on conversations or processes. All I would say, and I’d say it very firmly, I want the mess sorted out and I want people to return to the business that they’ve been elected to do, and that is to keep a bad and corrupt government to account and they need to be in a position…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Who do you back – John Pesutto or Moira Deeming? Do you support John Pesutto?
PETER DUTTON:
…and they need to be in a position where they can win the next election for the sake of the future of Victoria. I think on many fronts people are very concerned about what they’re seeing from the Victorian government and Premier Andrews and the Liberal Party is at its best when it’s all together.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
So, I’ll ask again – do you support John Pesutto?
PETER DUTTON:
Of course I do.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Why?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, he’s been elected the leader in Victoria. He’s a decent man. He will be a strong leader of his Party. But whilst there are internal distractions, that’s what the media will focus on and they need to sort out the problems that are before them at the moment, to do it quickly and get back to being a good opposition.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Is Moira Deeming’s tactics here – saying she will sue, all of this. Is she hurting your Party?
PETER DUTTON:
I’m not commenting on individuals, Patricia. I’m not entering into the debate about who said what to whom and all the nuances of that. I’m saying that it needs to be sorted out and it needs to be sorted out sooner than later.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay. I really appreciate you coming on, Peter Dutton. I’m just going to try and lock you in now. I want to speak to you after your budget in reply for next week. Can we organise that?
PETER DUTTON:
I’m sure we’ll be able to have a chat then, no problems.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
I’m sorry it wasn’t like your FM interview yesterday where everyone was telling you how wonderful you are, but I try not to tell anyone they’re wonderful.
PETER DUTTON:
Oh, you like to hear it just occasionally as a politician, but only occasionally!
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Just not too much, hey?
PETER DUTTON:
No, that’s true. That’s true. Thank you for having me on. I’ll see you soon. Thank you.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Alright, bye.
[ends]