Subjects: Visit to Victoria; the Liberal Party; Kanye West; Voice to Parliament; Alice Springs crime crisis; Australia Day.
E&OE.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Peter Dutton is the Federal Opposition Leader. He is visiting Victoria at the moment. In the studio Peter Dutton. Good morning.
PETER DUTTON:
Good morning Neil.
NEIL MITCHELL:
How’d you go in Victoria. You’re a bit toxic in Victoria, aren’t you?
PETER DUTTON:
Oh well, I have a feeling you like me. So, that’s a good start, isn’t it?
NEIL MITCHELL:
I mean, it’s a serious point. Even your own Liberal people say that ‘Peter Dutton’s a bit toxic’. What do you do to overcome that?
PETER DUTTON:
I think Neil, a lot of hype goes around in politics and the reality is when you meet people, for most people they say ‘geez, you know, nothing like what we thought you were, or that you come across on television’ or whatever else. I think people will see more of me and they can make their own judgements instead of listening to social media, and you know, I mean, people forming their judgements based on something that Anthony Albanese or Mark Dreyfus says about me…I think they’re better off to make up their own minds.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Well, except your own mates are saying in the Liberal Party here, I mean, the previous election, they just about blame you for losing, over accusing Victoria of having African gangs.
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah, I’m not sure that that’s quite the case. I would have loved to have won the last state election here. I thought for the sake of Victoria a change of government, a bit of a refresh would be great for the city and great for the state, but that wasn’t the case and I don’t think we featured in that result, not in the slightest bit.
It’s an issue for us though, in terms of the Liberal Party branding in Victoria, there’s no question about that. It’s a travesty that we weren’t in a competitive position at the last election at a state level, and if you look back over the federal results; I mean John Howard did well in ’96, but he did well everywhere and it deteriorated from that point in time…
NEIL MITCHELL:
Why?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, it’s a very good question. I think there’s an element of having watched a Labor government here perform over a period of time at a state level, and people feeling a level of comfort. In Tasmania, for example, at the moment the Liberal brand is very strong. We almost picked a seat up in addition to those that we held at the last election. In Queensland, we’re probably at the high watermark. Labor’s in the situation in Queensland that we’re in, in Victoria. In New South Wales we went backwards at the last federal election, so ground to make up there…
NEIL MITCHELL:
So, Victoria is a bit of a basket case?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, Victoria is a huge opportunity for us to pick up seats. It’s a low watermark…
NEIL MITCHELL:
Because you lost them all.
PETER DUTTON:
I’m glass half full, mate. What are you talking about?
NEIL MITCHELL:
Well, you’ve got a chance to pick up seats because you lost just about every seat there was. Federally, you’re still a bit on the nose, though, aren’t you? With women and young voters, the Liberal brand is not healthy.
PETER DUTTON:
We need to redefine ourselves because we’ve allowed ourselves to be defined by our opponents, and we’ve also had a period of good economic time, Neil. The fact is that economically, times are always harder under Labor. Labor always finds bad luck when they get into government because they make bad decisions and families and small businesses end up paying the price for that.
Now, over the course of the last five, six, seven years when people have been paying 1.8 per cent on their mortgages and shortly after, maybe the next six months or so, they’re paying, you know, 6.8 or 5.8, whatever it gets to for a variable, or if you lock in for a fixed rate – people are going to be starting to say ‘on top of my gas bill, on top of my electricity bill, how do I afford to, you know, keep the household running?’ So, there’ll be a different circumstance by the time of the next election that didn’t exist at the last, and we’ve got to be a credible alternative for them to consider, and I intend for us to be in that position.
NEIL MITCHELL:
We’ll get to those sort of grassroots issues, in a moment. Just finally on the politics. There are some in Victoria who say you’re just warming the seat for Josh Frydenberg. What’s the answer to that?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I want Josh to come back into Parliament. I think he’s our best chance of winning Kooyong at the next election because I don’t think the Member that’s been elected there has a great affinity with her electorate at all, and I intend to spend a lot more time in Victoria speaking to potential candidates, including Josh, who is a great loss to our Party.
NEIL MITCHELL:
But you’re not warming the seat for him?
PETER DUTTON:
I’m not a seat warmer for anyone. I’ve been in Parliament 21 years. John Howard identified me after my first term and I’ve been on the frontbench since 2004. I’ve had a number of portfolios. I don’t give up. I stand up for what I believe in, and in this game you can sit on the fence and be popular. I take the path to stand up and fight for what I believe in, and that means that some people like you and some don’t.
NEIL MITCHELL:
A couple of issues around. Kanye West, we were just talking about him. Would you, if you were Minister, would you ban him from entering Australia?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Neil, it’s difficult because you don’t have all of the facts in front of you. But I’ve got to say, my inclination would be not to allow him in. His anti-Semitic comments are disgraceful, his conduct and his behaviour is appalling, and he’s not a person of good character. The Minister has the ability to stop somebody coming into our country of bad character. So, the Minister’s got a lot to weigh up, but I must say my instinct would be if I was that decision maker, I think there are better people we could welcome in.
NEIL MITCHELL:
The Voice is going to be one of the key issues this year and probably one of the divisive issues. Do you believe if that referendum is rejected, don’t you believe the world is going to look at Australia and say you’re a racist lot?
PETER DUTTON:
No, I don’t. I don’t accept that for a moment. In the end, Australia should do what’s in our best interests and the Prime Minister’s proposed the Voice, proposed the referendum and it’s now his job to explain why it is we should change the Constitution…
NEIL MITCHELL:
What’s your option? You don’t like it and you want more detail? What is your option? How would you word these changes to the Constitution differently?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Neil, a couple of points. Firstly, the constitutional document, our founding document is the most important thing in our country. It’s provided the stability and the democracy, and has made us the envy of the world since the document was created, first point.
Second point is that the government could introduce the Voice legislation into Parliament when we return next week. They’ve got a majority in the Lower House, they’ve got support from the Greens and from us on the right bill in the Upper House. So they could legislate for the Voice tomorrow…
NEIL MITCHELL:
But what should be in it? Let’s say you’re in power, would you have a version of the Voice?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, we went to the last election with a version of the Voice. We believe that there should be a strong regional voice in particular…
NEIL MITCHELL:
How would it work?
PETER DUTTON:
…well, this is what we’re seeing play out in Alice Springs at the moment. You want to listen to those women. I was up in Alice Springs in late October and Indigenous women and elders up there are saying to me, kids aren’t going to school because they’re sleeping during the day. Why are they sleeping during the day? Because they’re out at night committing crimes. Many of them don’t want to go home to circumstances where they don’t feel safe. I spoke to some whistleblowers up there who’d been DOCS workers and public servants up there who are mentally broken because they’re taking kids back into an environment where they’re clinging onto their legs, screaming not to take them back.
In some instances, the Australian Federal Police report that you’ve got 100 per cent of kids living in some communities with sexually transmitted diseases. Now, if I thought the Voice was going to shift the dial on that one degree, I’d sign up to it in a heartbeat, but I don’t see the detail that the Prime Minister’s got before us that you can make an informed judgement…
NEIL MITCHELL:
But why not do both? They’re not mutually exclusive…
PETER DUTTON:
No, of course they’re not.
NEIL MITCHELL:
…You can deal with that problem in Alice Springs and other parts of the country, which is horrendous and in fairness we’ve been trying to do something, and you can set up the Voice. Why not both?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I think in their hearts, most Australians want to see a better outcome for Indigenous Australians…
NEIL MITCHELL:
Of course, yeah.
PETER DUTTON:
…We’re all in that boat. The question is whether or not you need to change the Constitution to be able to do that. If ATSIC had been enshrined in the Constitution, which turned out to be a failure and didn’t represent the Indigenous population well in our country, then we would be stuck with that, because no law that you can pass in Parliament can override the Constitution. That’s one of the questions that the Prime Minister needs to answer. There are High Court judges, retired, who are saying that the form of words proposed would give rise to a decade of a legal mind field.
NEIL MITCHELL:
So, what is your answer? Don’t touch the Constitution? Do you want it out of the…
PETER DUTTON:
I want to understand from the Prime Minister what the legal advice says, what the implication would be? Could the High Court determine that the Voice can have a say in defence matters, or it can have a say in budgetary priorities that the Treasurer is going to deliver? What would it mean for a Minister who has to make a quick decision if there’s a consultation with the Voice? How would the High Court interpret all of that? Once you start to bring the High Court into interpreting the law and expanding it, that is a different proposition than if you’ve got legislation before the Parliament. But again, that PM needs to give the details so that we can make an informed decision.
NEIL MITCHELL:
The polls say the support is going backwards and only 13 per cent of people understand it. Now, that’s happened since you’ve been criticizing it and you’re well entitled to, but can you honestly look at me and say you’re not just playing politics here?
PETER DUTTON:
I’m not playing politics at all Neil. I mean honestly, literally, it devastates me to see the circumstances in places like Alice Springs. I’m a father, my kids are a bit older now, I can’t believe that we’re in our country in 2023, tolerating a situation where kids are being sexually abused or physically abused at the rates that we’re seeing in our country.
NEIL MITCHELL:
But we’re not tolerating. We’re trying to fix it…
PETER DUTTON:
No, no, we are, because if this was happening in Melbourne, if it was happening in Sydney or Brisbane, people would be rioting in the streets because we’re talking about a prevalence and an activity that is unprecedented and it’s unacceptable and none of us want to see it, everybody wants to see it improved…
NEIL MITCHELL:
So, what do we do?
PETER DUTTON:
…It’s not a Liberal-Labor issue.
Well as the Indigenous women and the elders said to me up in Alice Springs, you’ve got to restore law and order. You can’t have…
NEIL MITCHELL:
But what does that mean? Send in more police?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, of course it does. That’s the first instance. If there was a no go zone for policing in Melbourne, then people would say, well, how is that possible? And police wouldn’t tolerate it. If there were crimes being perpetrated and the police weren’t able to do anything about it, we wouldn’t accept that. At the same time, you’ve got to provide the wraparound services for these families, for kids to go to school, have an environment that’s similar to what we would expect of our kids to go to a good school and grow up in an environment where their innocence of their childhood is not betrayed, and they’ve got a chance in life.
NEIL MITCHELL:
You did say that you thought at one stage that the Voice was effectively setting up a third chamber. I remember Malcolm Turnbull said the same thing and then recanted.
Do you still think it is a third chamber?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Neil, again, it depends on how it’s set up. This is why the detail is important, because there are versions of the Voice that I think some Australians could support and there are other versions which they wouldn’t support…
NEIL MITCHELL:
So, you support the Uluru Statement? Because that didn’t come from the Prime Minister?
PETER DUTTON:
I support practical reconciliation, an improvement in the lives of Indigenous Australians. I don’t want to see another bureaucracy. I don’t want to see government bogged down. I want to see the situation in Alice Springs improved as quickly as humanly possible. I want to see an improvement in infant mortality rates. I want to see education rates improved and I don’t think I’m different to most Australians.
The question is if you change the Constitution, are you going to get that outcome? The Prime Minister at the moment believes that he doesn’t need to provide the detail, and I don’t think that’s the right approach.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Do you want to see an improved level of communication between the Indigenous community and the Australian Parliament?
PETER DUTTON:
Of course.
NEIL MITCHELL:
You do?
PETER DUTTON:
Yes.
NEIL MITCHELL:
How do you do it?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, you can do it through the Department which spends billions of dollars now…
NEIL MITCHELL:
…It hasn’t worked. We spent billions of dollars and we got this crisis in Alice Springs.
PETER DUTTON:
You’ve asked me for those options, I think that’s one option.
So, South Australia has just announced their own Voice. They’re going to engage with 40 Indigenous leaders in Adelaide to provide them with input. So, we don’t know how that will interact with the Prime Minister’s proposed model.
You can listen to people, and you can also choose not to act Neil, this is a really important point. So, I don’t think the voice, frankly, out of Alice Springs will change whether the Voice is enshrined in the Constitution or not. The voice out of Alice Springs at the moment is clear. The problem is that it’s not being acted upon and that’s the difficulty.
NEIL MITCHELL:
The Prime Minister continues to point us to the Langton-Calma report. Have you read it?
PETER DUTTON:
Yes, 272 pages.
NEIL MITCHELL:
What’s the biggest problem in it?
PETER DUTTON:
The problem is that the government hasn’t adopted the report. So, this is a red herring, right? If the Prime Minister said, ‘I want you to vote for the referendum and this is what we’re going to implement, lock, stock and barrel. 272 pages worth. Go and read it and see what you like and all the details there.’ But he hasn’t adopted the report.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Australia Day – what day should it be?
PETER DUTTON:
I’m very strongly of the view that is should remain 26th of January.
NEIL MITCHELL:
But again, that’s not working. For rightly or wrongly, we’ve got this campaign against it. Even the Australian Open is not going to recognise it this week.
PETER DUTTON:
Neil, as Noel Pearson’s pointed out, we have a huge, not an issue in this country that is insurmountable, but we can’t be ashamed of our past. We can be very proud of our Indigenous heritage, and we should be. We can be very proud of our British heritage, and we should be. We should be very proud of our multicultural community in our country. The three are blended together and I don’t subscribe to this view that you need to pull down one of those three legs to build up the other two. We should be proud.
Now, we’ve made mistakes through the course of our history – absolutely. The treatment of Indigenous people, even to this very day. Does that need to be addressed and acknowledged? Of course it does. But we live in the best country in the world, we are the envy of the world, and we shouldn’t be trying to pull ourselves down and apologise. We should be celebrating who we are and January 26 is one of those days where plenty of Australians want to celebrate and will celebrate and should be allowed to celebrate.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Thank you so much for coming in. Just a final question which comes from a member of the audience. Do you unequivocally say, ‘the way things stand at the moment, vote ‘no’ to the referendum’?
PETER DUTTON:
I want to see the detail of the referendum so that I can make an informed judgement. That’s a reasonable question and it should be answered…
NEIL MITCHELL:
…And if we don’t get that, is it a ‘no’ vote?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, if people don’t understand or the Prime Minister can’t explain it, or at the moment he’s making a political decision not to release the detail because he thinks that’s his best chance, then I think the Prime Minister is going to lead us to failure with this referendum, and I think that would be a tragedy, I think it would be a mistake and I think the decisions that he’s making now are going to lead to people voting ‘no’ for it and that’s why many people from the Indigenous communities are saying to the Prime Minister, get the detail out.
NEIL MITCHELL:
But before the vote, you’re still open to either a ‘yes’ or a ‘no’? You can tell us.
PETER DUTTON:
I am open. I will make my position clear, but I’ve given every chance to the Prime Minister. I’ve written to him, I’ve met with him, I’ve asked him for the detail because that’s the conversation you have with Australians as you move around the country.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Thank you very much for coming. You better go out and meet some Victorians.
PETER DUTTON:
I look forward to it, mate. Thank you.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Shake hands.
PETER DUTTON:
I will, I will. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
[ends]