Subjects: Malaysia Airlines flight scare; the Coalition’s positive plan to improve sporting infrastructure and promote female participation in sport; the Prime Minister’s public holiday thought bubble; nuclear power; the Prime Minister’s divisive Voice, Treaty, Truth proposal; Qantas and The Voice; alcohol and drug testing; relationship with the Prime Minister.
E&OE
NEIL MITCHELL:
First up, in the studio with me, Opposition Leader Peter Dutton. Good morning.
PETER DUTTON:
Good morning, Neil.
NEIL MITCHELL:
This incident out of Sydney airport – the security incident – a man on a plane with a backpack saying things considered to be potentially dangerous. Now it’s up to the police and the courts to sort that out, but there’s argument that it might not have been handled all that well. There’s claims he was behaving erratically in the departure lounge, and further, once the aircraft landed, it was on the ground for I think the passengers were on board for 3 hours. It sounds like – you’re a former security man, yourself – it sounds as if we’ve got some, we haven’t handled all that well. Do you agree?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, it will be interesting to see the investigation and the wash-up from it, because as you point out, were there signs that he demonstrated erratic behaviour before he got on the plane which should have been picked up by either the crew or the terminal staff? I don’t know whether other customers had made any complaints about him, or whether he’d been drawn to the attention of the police? Obviously, you know, a lot of people go through airports, but it’s a tough job to police all of that.
But even when you read some of the eyewitness accounts, his conduct on the plane, the time it took the plane to stay on the tarmac before the matter was resolved, lots of questions, but I think most importantly, it’s just a reminder of how vigilant we need to be; that there are a lot of crazy people out there and they would seek to do us harm. I think it’s very difficult to see how somebody could get a device through the current screening processes at airports, but nonetheless, if you were on that plane yesterday, you had a pretty sleepless night last night.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Oh it was terrifying, wasn’t it?
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah, it would be. I mean, particularly if you’re on there with children and, you know, it brings back memories pretty quickly of 9/11 and other terrorist-type incidents. So obviously, the review will take place and the police are investigating now, as you say.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Well, who reviews it? At what level – other than police? That’ll go through the courts if appropriate, but who reviews it? Does somebody sit down and say, ‘okay, this is what happens, we mucked up, this is how we do it’. What level do we do that?
PETER DUTTON:
Oh, I think Sydney Airport will conduct their own investigation…
NEIL MITCHELL:
It doesn’t involve government?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, it does there will be the Civil Aviation Authority as well that can lean in. Obviously, there are a number of layers within the Australian Federal Police and New South Wales Police in this instance. I think they will conduct a pretty thorough review themselves because it’s in everyone’s interest to make sure that firstly you can identify somebody of this nature, and the CCTV networks and the supervision, the surveillance that goes on at airports now is pretty extensive. So, it’s worth asking the question and we should learn from it.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Interesting situation, and I’d be interested in your view also, as a former police officer. On that plane with that going on, you’d be tempted, if you were a passenger, to intervene and try and bring the man down.
PETER DUTTON:
I agree with that. I was sort of looking at some of the vision, the footage, that passengers had taken that they posted online last night, and, you know, you ask yourself whether, if you were sitting in that seat with his back to you, whether you’d take him on, whether other passengers would join you. The crew looked very calm and trying to negotiate with him and keep him calm – which would be their training kicking in. You don’t know whether he’s bluffing or not in terms of the backpack, so…
NEIL MITCHELL:
So, you could bring him down and he’s going to explode something?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, that’s right, and this is the dilemma for these types of incidents. You know, his hands, one hand, free to get to a device. Is it likely the device is on board? If the plane’s mid-air it’s a different prospect than if it’s on the ground. You know, they’re terrible decisions that people would have to make in a split second.
NEIL MITCHELL:
What would you have done? Do you know?
PETER DUTTON:
I don’t know, to be honest. I’ve got to say, we flew Malaysian Airlines not too long ago for our 20th wedding anniversary, we went overseas, and the staff were just delightful, as you’d expect, and the ground crew, the hosties, were really exceptional and…
NEIL MITCHELL:
Not hosties anymore!
PETER DUTTON:
Well, call them what you want.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Flight attendants.
PETER DUTTON:
Flight attendants. I’ll get into trouble. But I just think that they’re trained for it, so you take their lead, but you’d want to think that if things escalated, that other passengers would have jumped into to support them.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Do you know whether we still have sky marshals? Remember after September 11 we had people undercover in civilian clothes, armed, and we didn’t know what flights they were on. They were on a scattering of flights. Do we still have sky marshals?
PETER DUTTON:
To my knowledge, we do, and they’ll risk assess different flights and routes and look at passenger manifests, etc., so that they make those judgements. But they’re not on every flight.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Okay, the Matildas, are you surprised some small businesses are barracking for them to lose?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I’m disappointed, but not surprised, in a way. I mean, if you’re a household at the moment can’t afford to pay the electricity bill and you’re getting the insurance premium, you know, going through the roof from last year, your gas bill is up – small businesses are facing exactly the same dilemma. They’ve got a lot of customers now who are spending less in store because they’re saving up to pay for their mortgage. So, you can understand why small business would be particularly anxious.
I think the PM might be well-intentioned, but I think it’s the wrong call, and I think it puts pressure on businesses where we don’t need it. I mean, the Diamonds just won the World Cup, the Women’s Ashes team have just won the Ashes in the UK. I think a longer lasting legacy, as we’ve announced today, is an investment into some of those clubhouses where they haven’t got girls’ facilities.
NEIL MITCHELL:
So, what’s the plan? What are you suggesting?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, what we think is that the days of young girls turning up to a footy match and getting changed into their uniform in the car park is just absurd because there’s no female change rooms. I saw some footage yesterday of a shower block where you’ve got three shower roses but no cubicles. So what, the expectation is that girls are going to be, showering there alongside boys that have played in the adjoining field? It’s a nonsense.
So, Soccer Australia have called for this and other sports as well. I don’t think, as you go club by club, there’s a huge expense involved, but I do think those days of shared facilities are over and we’re asking that there be a co-contribution from the clubs and I hope a matching contribution from the states and territories which would see us increase participation for young women, it’d be greater safety, it’s a health benefit if kids are playing sport, and I think that would do justice to the success of the Matildas and otherwise.
NEIL MITCHELL:
So how much will you put aside?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, we believe that the investment is prudent in $250 million, you know, it’s a lot of money, but the other aspect to it is that the clubs have to do this work anyway, so they’re going to pass on the cost to families through increased fees or a levy otherwise. So, you know, hopefully we’re saving families some money in this is well.
NEIL MITCHELL:
There was one of the former Matilda, and in a direct fashion said, ‘forget the f***ing holiday, give us some support for our sport’.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I think this matches that call, and I hope that the PM could adopt it. I think it’s a more prudent approach than the one off public holiday, which comes at a cost to the economy of about $2 billion.
NEIL MITCHELL:
So, $250 million federally matched by states around the country and matched by the clubs?
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah, I think if the clubs have got some skin in the game as well, you’re not making it prohibitive for them, but I think you end up getting better bang for your buck. They can contract with the local builder, the local tilers and you get a good win for the economy as well. But, you know, I think there are a number of reasons why it makes sense.
NEIL MITCHELL:
I know Chris Minns, the New South Wales Premier, is talking about street parades and things. I’ve got an idea – if Gill McLachlan’s your good mate, you can lobby this with him, at the AFL and so will I – grand final day, before the game, not parades around the edge – you get the Diamonds, you get the women’s cricket team, you get the Matildas, and they’ve already achieved enough to deserve this. You get the three women’s successful teams out in the middle of the oval and just do some sort of thing to celebrate.
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah, I think that’s a great idea, and I think there’ll be parades in different cities and whatnot, but I think it’d be great to have on grand final day. Gill, of course is supposed to have moved on from the AFL…
NEIL MITCHELL:
No, he doesn’t do that until after the grand final!
PETER DUTTON:
Righto. Well we will…
NEIL MITCHELL:
Believe it when it happens!
PETER DUTTON:
We’ll see.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Okay. Nuclear power. You’ll want to know that my podcast is online now: Neil Mitchell Asks Why. I spent an hour with the Prime Minister yesterday and I asked him about nuclear power:
[Excerpt]
NEIL MITCHELL:
Are we going to have a serious talk about nuclear power?
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
No.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Why not?
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
Because it doesn’t stack up in Australia economically. So, I think for countries where it does stack up, great.
NEIL MITCHELL:
So you’re not concerned about the environmental effects, it’s the economics is it?
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
Well, it’s just no one’s going to finance it. It’s the most expensive form of new energy in Australia you could imagine…
NEIL MITCHELL:
You agree, it’s clean?
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
…And it’s a delay. Yeah, it is. It is.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Well, shouldn’t we be finding a way to do it?
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
But no one has. No one has. And here we have such abundant renewable energy resources. The big breakthrough here that will occur that could be such a bonus for Australia is of course hydrogen.
[End excerpt]
NEIL MITCHELL:
Well, Peter Dutton, what do you say?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Neil, I Just think you need to look at the facts, and the facts are that the new small modular reactors can replace coal fired generation. It’s zero emissions, so in terms of reducing our emissions and having a credible pathway to net zero by 2050, there’s nothing else that compares. If you look at Ontario in Canada, people are paying half the price for electricity that they’re paying here.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Well, what does he mean when he says it doesn’t stack up financially? Is it too expensive to set up?
PETER DUTTON:
It just doesn’t make sense. You know, does it make sense for somebody to invest in a wind turbine or a solar farm without government subsidy? Probably not. But people are doing it with significant government subsidy at the moment. You need to look at the wind turbines, for example. All of those blades are going to be put into landfill, so there’s a huge environmental impact, embedding them into the seabed, the disruption on productive farmland, and the other point is that with the renewable-only policy of the Prime Minister, they’re proposing 28,000 kilometres of new poles and wires at the cost of over $100 billion. So if you think your power prices are expensive now, wait for the next couple of years.
With the plug-and-play of the new small modular reactors, you can replace the coal fired generation and distribute through the existing network, the existing poles and wires. So, over time, there is a very significant savings to cost, but you also don’t get the disruption which is coming as well because intermittent power – wind and solar, it always, whether it’s at 70, 80, 90 per cent, you’re still going to need to firm it up for the time that it doesn’t work.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Well, the Prime Minister said there’s not even a discussion to have, so that’s ruled out. If you became Prime Minister, if you won the election, would you then establish some sort of a formal review or would you just do it?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, we’ve said already that we want to start the conversation. Obviously…
NEIL MITCHELL:
So, it’s a conversation rather than…
PETER DUTTON:
It’s a conversation now, and I think we’ll make clear our position before the election, because if you want a credible pathway to emissions reductions – as the Greens and others in places like Germany have pointed out – this is the most credible pathway to it.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Well, the Prime Minister himself then said – in that little bit I played, that yes, he accepts it’s green, he accepts it’s clean.
PETER DUTTON:
Look, Neil, if you scratch below the surface a bit here, the ALP have got their conference coming up at the end of this week. The Prime Minister’s doing his best to talk down the hard left of his Party who are against AUKUS, they’re against AUKUS because of the nuclear powered submarine. So, his problem is an internal one and he can barely hold the show together to hold support for the nuclear submarines. So, internally it’s difficult for him. Now, I respect that. You know, as party leaders, you’ve got an internal dynamic, but it’s in our national interest to trump the party interest and to have this conversation and decide whether to goer or not.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Well, in that podcast we do talk about the power of the Labor Party Conference. If we went nuclear, have you done any estimates of how much it would reduce power bills for the average person?
PETER DUTTON:
We’re doing that work right now, which I think is prudent and you need to deal with the safety issues, you need to deal with the cost, but the fact is that there are 32 countries using nuclear energy at the moment, there are 50 looking at the small modular reactors and countries like France and Canada, the United States, obviously China, others. It makes sense for us to at least have the conversation here.
NEIL MITCHELL:
The Voice. Now, I’m not quite clear on this – you support recognition of the Constitution, right?
PETER DUTTON:
Yes, I do.
NEIL MITCHELL:
You don’t support the Voice being written into the Constitution? If you win power, would you legislate a form of the Voice?
PETER DUTTON:
I believe two things. One is that constitutional recognition is important, and I think that would be a unifying moment for our country, if the Prime Minister asks that question in October instead of the Voice question. The Voice is going to divide our country right down the middle and it’s unnecessary. I just don’t think the Australian public is ready for the Voice. I do believe, though, second point – I do believe very strongly that it’s important for us to listen to elders and Indigenous women, grandparents, in communities like Alice Springs…
NEIL MITCHELL:
So, do you legislate a form of the Voice?
PETER DUTTON:
I would support the legislation of a regional and local voice, not a national body, not a National Voice which is being proposed, which is based in Canberra. I think it gives respect to those local views. But Neil, look, there are plenty of Aboriginal communities, including in East Arnhem Land, for example, where they’ve got a 90 per cent attendance rate at school, they’ve got industry, people are employed, people are in housing, it’s functioning well. We need to replicate that model elsewhere, which is not a failing of people’s voice being heard, it’s a failing of Canberra listening and acting appropriately.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Do you agree that doing nothing is not an option?
PETER DUTTON:
Yes, and I don’t believe that the current situation is something that any Australian wants to tolerate. I just don’t believe the Voice, without any detail and the Prime Minister deliberately holding the detail back until after the Voice, the legislation, he won’t release until after the Voice. Nobody knows actually how it will work.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Well, he says you’re lying about that, but I guess that’s not surprising. The Uluru Statement from the Heart, and there’s this rather pointless debate about the first page and the rest of it. The Prime Minister told me he’d only read the first page, he hadn’t read the supplementary documents, have you?
PETER DUTTON:
I have, and Megan Davis refers to the 18 pages within her “Parkes Oration” in 2018. She’s made other references to it…
NEIL MITCHELL:
But what concerns you? He hasn’t read it. He says he doesn’t need to.
PETER DUTTON:
I just think you’ve got to accept that there is a broader discussion here than just the Voice. It comes with truth telling. As we’ve seen in Western Australia in legislation there, they had the Heritage Act, which meant that somebody on 1,100 square metres or more, on a quarter of an acre or more, to dig down 400mls, so 40 centimetres to take a post hole on your block of land, you needed a cultural heritage report…
NEIL MITCHELL:
But you can overcome that. You can overcome that.
PETER DUTTON:
But that’s been abolished. Now, had that been in the Constitution, not in legislation, we’d be bound with it until you could change it at a subsequent Referendum. So, the point, Neil, is that legislation can’t overrule the Constitution, and, you know, there are good points that people make that you could adopt. But overall, we don’t understand the full impact or the import of the Voice, how the courts will interpret it, and I think that’s part of the reason why there’s a big hesitation.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Federal Government blocked an application by Qatar Air for 20 additional flights. Do you know why?
PETER DUTTON:
I don’t know why.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Does it concern you?
PETER DUTTON:
It does, because I think the inbound tourism numbers that would be achieved by those additional flights would be significant. It would be a huge win for…
NEIL MITCHELL:
But do we do business with anybody? Are we happy to have Qatar or Emirates or all these people coming in despite some of their records on human rights?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, we’ve got to have a balance in terms of what is in our country’s best interests, and that includes how we can help the tourism sector. There are plenty of countries that we trade with, that we deal with, that we sell arms to, that we wouldn’t be 100 per cent happy with their record and Qatar has issues, as UAE does more generally, as Saudi Arabia does, as Israel might…
NEIL MITCHELL:
As China has.
PETER DUTTON:
…the United States, China has significant human rights issues, as we know. But I think it was a poor decision, it hasn’t been explained, and I think at the moment Australians are paying through the nose for flights to Europe and to the Americas, and I think that extra competition would actually be of benefit domestically for outbound tourism as much as it would be for inbound.
NEIL MITCHELL:
What did you think of Qantas and the Prime Minister – spinning out of that – but launching the plane yesterday with the ‘yes’ on the side of it?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, my honest judgement is – and I think it’s evidenced in the polling at the moment – I think the CEOs’ moralising and telling people what they should think and do is turning to be counterproductive. That’s the reality. I think most people have battled enough to make up their own mind and I don’t think they’re going to be influenced by it.
NEIL MITCHELL:
You would have locked up a few drunks in your time?
PETER DUTTON:
A long time ago.
NEIL MITCHELL:
You ever seen any around – you’ve been in Parliament 22 years – ever seen any around Parliament should have been locked up?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, for different reasons I suspect, you could argue.
NEIL MITCHELL:
No for drunk, or drugs?
PETER DUTTON:
No, I’ve never seen anybody under the influence of drugs.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Really!
PETER DUTTON:
I’ve seen people who have consumed too much alcohol, no question. But I’ve seen that in most workplaces and I’ve seen it at Christmas parties that you go to at local engineering firms in your electorate.
NEIL MITCHELL:
It’s been suggested here that there should be drug testing and maybe even alcohol testing of Members of Parliament when Parliament’s sitting. What do you think?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, again, if you’re going to apply it equally to other workplaces, yes. But I think Parliament is a workplace, like other workplaces, and it should be treated no less, no more.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Just finally, again, this incredible podcast: Neil Mitchell Asks Why, the Prime Minister said he didn’t like Scott Morrison, but you’re a good bloke, you’re good to deal with. So, he gave you a rap.
PETER DUTTON:
I think he gave me the kiss of death! Is that how you interpret it?!
Look, I’ve got a good relationship with the PM. I can have a conversation with him, we can keep each other’s trust. We have a difference of agreement on a number of issues, but in the end, I think we’ve got our national interest at heart and I’ll work with the Government, support the Government, where it’s in our interest to do so.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Can you tell me a Labor person or a Green who you respect and like?
PETER DUTTON:
Richard Marles, I get on with well. I get on well with Bill Shorten, with Tony Burke. I might have differences of opinion…
NEIL MITCHELL:
You get on with Bill Shorten is more than the Prime Minister used to!
PETER DUTTON:
Well, they’ve put that to bed, at least for the time being. So, I’ve always said to the young kids who come to Parliament House, there are good and bad on both sides of politics and the majority are good, they want the best for our country and we should celebrate that.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Thanks for your time. You didn’t get heckled on the streets of Melbourne did you? The socialist state.
PETER DUTTON:
Not I got a few selfies, so, all good.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Thank you very much.
PETER DUTTON:
Thanks, mate.
[ends]