Subjects: Indigenous Voice to Parliament; Visit to Perth and WA; Labor’s abolition of the Cashless Debit Card; crime crisis in Indigenous communities; the Prime Minister’s flashy Freshwater Bay fundraiser; WA Liberal Leader Libby Mettam; superannuation.
E&OE.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Mr Dutton joins me on the line. Thanks very much for your time, Peter.
PETER DUTTON:
My pleasure, Gary. Thank you.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Can I just start, if you don’t mind – clearly, the last election proved that your party needs to be seen as more socially progressive. So why are you resisting a Referendum on a voice for Aboriginal people in the Parliament?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Gary, I think every Australian – me included – wants to see a better situation for Indigenous Australians. When you’re looking at what’s happening – not just in WA but the Northern Territory and elsewhere at the moment – in Indigenous communities, kids are involved in crime, they’re not going to school. The levels of sexual abuse and domestic violence is through the roof and clearly what’s happening now isn’t working and we need to get a better outcome. The question is whether the Voice is that outcome. I think, again, like millions of Australians, I just want the detail and to understand whether it’s a model that can actually improve the situation in these communities, or is it just going to be a model that adds another layer of bureaucracy and so far, for whatever reason, the Prime Minister has refused to provide that detail, which I don’t understand, and I think Australians are sort of a little bit bemused as to why the PM won’t give that detail out.
GARY ADSHEAD:
But isn’t this about just whether you do or don’t support a Referendum on the issue and then you get into the detail through the Parliament? Isn’t that what would happen?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Gary, I mean, a couple of points; as I say, you could end up with a model that works perfectly. You could end up with a model that has years and years in the courts, in the High Court, so the notion that Indigenous people can have a voice, but only on issues that relate to Indigenous people, well, that includes every area of public policy. You can’t argue anything other than that. So, the Prime Minister says it excludes defence and national security, but is that what the High Court would interpret? That would depend on the model, it would depend on the wording taken to the Referendum. The other point about just taking it to a Referendum and seeing what the public says. As the Prime Minister has pointed out, if, through the lack of detail, people decide that they can’t support it, and they don’t understand what it’s about, then the Referendum will be voted down. In that circumstance, as the PM’s pointed out, you do risk putting reconciliation back. So, I think it’s important to get the detail right first, so that you can have, I guess, a properly-informed public and then they can make a decision from there.
GARY ADSHEAD:
I just sort of wonder whether or not though you’re at risk of sort of reducing your base even further because, you know, all indications are that a lot of people would agree that Aboriginal people need to be recognised in our Constitution and that a Referendum on that would be a good starting point.
PETER DUTTON:
We agree with that. I certainly support constitutional recognition…
GARY ADSHEAD:
But you’ve muddied the whole argument now, haven’t you? I mean, you’ve made a stance to sort of, you know, drag it out and talk about issues around it, which clearly are muddying the argument for people.
PETER DUTTON:
Well Gary, there was a poll out the other day that showed that 13 per cent of Australians understand what the Voice is about, 87 per cent don’t, and there are about 28 per cent who instinctively will support the Voice regardless. But to change the Constitution – which is a big deal in our country, it’s the founding document, it’s not like just passing a law that you can amend next year or the year after or abolish that law or add to it – if you change the Constitution, it’s in the Constitution then for life and that can override the Parliament. So, people understand the complexity of it but the proposition before Australians at the moment is do people want a constitutionally-enshrined Voice? Back to John Howard, the Liberal Party has supported the constitutional recognition of Australians for their special place and their 60,000 years of history in our country. I strongly support that. But I can tell you it’s been a while since I was a police officer but the scenes of domestic violence in Indigenous communities, young kids being sexually assaulted, stays with me to this day. I want desperately for a better outcome for those kids because the same mistakes are being made today and I think Australians are of a similar view. But unless you understand what it is you’re being asked to vote for, how could you vote for it?
GARY ADSHEAD:
I’m going to come to those issues you just talked about there in a second, but obviously senior business leader Wesfarmers boss Michael Chaney, he’s backed it in today in a piece that is in the Australian Financial Review. Does that concern you? I mean that’s a very significant business leader that’s saying he backs a Voice Referendum.
PETER DUTTON:
I have a great deal of respect for Michael and I’ve known him for a long period of time and he’s expressing a view that, as I say, many Australians will have, but there are many more who will want to make up their own minds and not be told what to do. They want to get the detail, to mull over it, and decide whether it’s going to be the best outcome. I think the Prime Minister is talking now about amending the form of words because they may not be the ideal form of words and there’ll be other business leaders who have a different view, you know, based on that new form of words or the old form of words. I mean, there’ll be different views around and Michael’s is one of those views but, as I say, he’s somebody for whom I have a great deal of respect.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Just to finally on that, I mean, when do you think your Party will make a position statement on it?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, in a sense, we’re reliant on the PM releasing some of the detail and there are different views around when he will do that. We might have to make a decision absent the detail because it just hasn’t been released. But I think, to be honest, we’ve been pretty reasonable in our approach: we’ve said we’re absolutely determined to get a better outcome for Indigenous Australians, but we want to understand that this model is going to provide that better outcome and we will make our decision in due course and be very clear about that. But I think the debate at the moment is in a township like Leonora: would the Voice make a difference to those families and to that community? Would it reduce the violence? Would it increase the educational opportunities? Would it reduce the infant mortality and would the life expectancy go up under the government’s model? It’s not clear that that’s the case and I think the outcome that we want is the outcome the country wants and a better situation for Indigenous Australians and the PM needs to put some meat on the bones.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Now, I understand you’re going to travel to Laverton as well while you’re here, which of course is going through issues – ‘a spike’ what they say in alcohol abuse, crime, family dysfunction, issues that are well known – but what could you achieve from opposition in that area?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, we can achieve a lot because, firstly, we’re an alternative government. So, we need to be properly informed about our policies, our decisions and engage with people, listen to people, and in opposition, you don’t have the burden of running a Defence department or an Education department. You’ve got time to sit down and reconsider your policies that you take to the next election. Secondly, we can obviously highlight what’s a very considerable problem and the local Mayor and others have been in the press recently saying that, ‘they feel that people should get a better understanding of what’s happening in their community’. I’ve taken the view – as I did by visiting the Northern Territory, and Alice Springs, in particular – that you want to be on the ground and you want to speak to the real people who are delivering the services, the people who are impacted by the government decisions. The Prime Minister’s decision to abolish the Cashless Debit Card has been a disaster and it’s resulted in increases in violence, and I think being on the ground, listening to that and highlighting it, using the opportunity we’ve got through the press nationally is just a positive thing to do.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Would you bring that back if you come back to government?
PETER DUTTON:
I’d bring it back in a heartbeat. Frankly, when you speak to the grandmothers and the mothers, the Elders on the ground in these communities, that’s exactly what they’re asking for, and they can’t understand why it was taken away in the first place.
GARY ADSHEAD:
It’s been a bit of a sort of a glib argument in some quarters, but should the PM be going to places like Laverton, Carnarvon, Kununurra, Halls Creek?
PETER DUTTON:
I think so. I think there was a great reluctance to go to Alice Springs, but once he got there he was obviously able to listen to some of the views on the ground. You can’t just be a Prime Minister for the inner cities, you need to be a Prime Minister for every Australian, and being out there listening to those views; showing, you know, I think a little bit of contrition to be honest and explaining to people why he took the decision to take the Cashless Debit Card away, which has allowed the grog to restart and the violence to become a reality of everyday life. I think that needs an explanation and I think the Prime Minister owes it to these communities to be there to provide that advice.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Well, the grog will be flowing at the Royal Freshwater Bay Yacht Club. Obviously a completely different and juxtaposition there for the Prime Minister. That’s not a problem, is it? That’s just politics, isn’t it? You come to town, you meet with the rich and the famous, and you raise money for your political party.
PETER DUTTON:
Oh, well, I mean, you know, that’s a modern reality, or probably a reality since Federation of politics. You’ve got to pay for the ads and to get your message across, I accept all of that, but when you’re flying over communities that are in desperate need and are asking to see their Prime Minister, when the Prime Minister is, you know, happy to sort of hobnob it in town but not go to the communities, then I think that’s a problem. I think the PM, frankly, should be out there, as I say, explaining why his government took the Cashless Debit Card away, which has resulted in an increase in the violence that we’re now seeing, and many of the community leaders are asking for it to be reinstated without those problems. Well, maybe he’s got other priorities to deal with, but when those issues are alive and you’re seeing violence and break-ins and assaults and robberies every day, it’s a national crisis and it’s a law and order problem that’s completely out of control, and it requires his attention. Frankly, it should be a higher priority in his diary than what it is.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Just a couple of things to finish on. Obviously, you’ve got a new Liberal leader, state leader here in Libby Mettam. Is she going to be enough to win back some of those vital state seats that you need to start to build some momentum?
PETER DUTTON:
There’s no doubt in my mind that that’s the case, Gary. I had a catch-up with Libby this morning, and I’d spoken to her on the phone after she was elected Leader. I think she’s a breath of fresh air for the Liberal Party, and for WA. I think there’s, you know, Mark McGowan’s in a honeymoon, that continues. He’s got a big majority. There’s a level of arrogance there. I think the economy here, where inflation’s higher than any other state at the moment, and the federal government’s attacks on the resources sector. Libby will stand up for that. She’s not going to do cosy deals like two Labor leaders would. She’ll call it out and act in the best interests of WA. So, I’m excited about her leadership. I think she’ll do a great job.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Are you glad she moved on ‘The Clan’?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I think she made a very smart intervention and gave a very clear message to the Party that the Liberal Party is owned by our members, not by any individual, whether they’re an elected member of Parliament or not. I think her leadership demonstrates to the public that she’s got a strength in her spine and that she’s willing to stand up to people that she doesn’t believe are acting in her state’s best interests or in her Party’s best interests.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Just finally, I’ll save the best for last. Treasurer Jim Chalmers wants to enshrine superannuation laws – supposedly to make sure that it can’t be used for anything other than in retirement and not raided for other purposes. Would you support that or is that going to be a spark in terms of debate?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, it’s going to be a big debate I think, Gary, because, you know, you’ve seen Jim Chalmers with his 6000-word essay talking about remaking capitalism and now he’s talk about superannuation this morning – all of that is code for taxation, which is exactly what Labor governments do, because they spend a lot of money, they waste a lot of money, and then they come after more of yours.
In relation to superannuation, your super money in your super fund can be used to buy somebody else a house, but it can’t be used to help a first home buyer buy his or her house. It doesn’t make any sense. We took a great policy to the election, which I recommitted to in my budget in reply speech in May of last year. That is, that it allows people to access their superannuation to aid in the purchase of their first home. When they sell the asset, they’ve got to put the money with the uplift back into superannuation, so you can get a compounding benefit by the time of retirement. That is a perfectly sensible policy. It makes no sense that somebody else is able to use your money to buy themselves a house under Labor’s proposal, but that you can’t use money out of your super, that you’ve put into that fund to help you get started in the housing market. So, I think there’s a big debate to be had there, but I think a lot of it’s code for more taxation coming on superannuation and we’ll see some of that detail, I suspect, in the May budget.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Peter Dutton, thanks very much for joining us.
PETER DUTTON:
Thanks, Gary. All the best, mate.
[ends]