Subjects: Hunter class frigate; AUKUS; Labor’s immigration detention shambles; South Australia Senate preselection.
E&OE.
DAVID BEVAN:
Peter Dutton, thank you for joining us here on 891 ABC Radio Adelaide.
PETER DUTTON:
Pleasure David. Thank you very much.
DAVID BEVAN:
Peter Dutton, the word is – the signals seem to be – regarding the frigates, that South Australia will get a continuous build. It’s just not clear that they’ll all end up being frigates. What do you think the Government should do?
PETER DUTTON:
Well David, it’s frustrating because there’s been a lot of secrecy around all of the detail. The Defence Minister obviously seems to be in some conflict with the Chief of the Defence Force at the moment, and so that relationship has broken down, unfortunately. So I think there’s a lot that we don’t know about just yet.
But it is in a sense, a moment of déja vu because this is what happened when federal Labor was last in power. They always find other priorities for the money. It goes into other areas, and I think one of the Defence Minister’s frustrations, and frankly, I think one of the Defence Department’s frustrations, is that the Defence Minister just hasn’t been able to win the day at the Expenditure Review Committee and get the money required. The frigate program needed close management, and I don’t think that Richard Marles has been able to do that.
DAVID BEVAN:
But is it also a case of changing circumstances? Perhaps nine or six frigates are not the answer? Perhaps something else is? And the Government needs to respond to that.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, the Government needs to provide that evidence and that view, if that is their view. The media speculation, and particularly for defence industry at the moment – and not just in shipbuilding, but in other people in the supply chain in South Australia and for that matter, WA and elsewhere – there’s a great and growing level of frustration at the moment because everything is being pushed to the right, as they say: projects are being delayed, and there’s a lumpiness in the workforce, it’s difficult to find staff, particularly with the skill set required in some of that manufacturing, and those people are lost if there’s not a continuity of that work.
This is exactly what happened when Labor was last in power in South Australia. The announcements that we made gave that continuity, and we want to see the stability in the workforce, and the investment continue into South Australia.
DAVID BEVAN:
Two years ago, just before the last election, you were the Defence Minister. Were you told that nine frigates was what Australia needed?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, we had very close contact with the ship manufacturers, and in fact at one stage, I was having weekly calls with the senior management within the company because I was concerned about elements of the program, and obviously the order had already been placed and the plans already decided upon. In terms of the numbers, I’d have to go back to check the advice that was given at the time, but the acquisition had, or the decision to acquire, had happened some time before that.
DAVID BEVAN:
So, just to return to the original question, if you were running the Government, what would you do? Or are you not in a position to say because you just don’t have the latest information?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, we don’t have the latest information and that’s why I say, if there was transparency here, if there was a proper explanation by the Defence Minister, instead of going to ground, we could have an informed conversation about it. So I think there’s some speculation.
There’s a lot of frustration, speaking with defence industry players, as I say, about just their annoyance at the approach of the Government and the Minister at the moment, and that makes it hard for manufacturers and employers in South Australia to put on additional apprentices or buy additional equipment, take over an additional yard. We know that there’s a lot of opportunity, and as the Prime Minister rightly points out, we live in the most precarious position any time since the Second World War. It’s a contested space in our region, and we need to project strength, and we do that through our surface fleets and obviously through the AUKUS deal with the US and the UK. But time is of the essence, and we need to make sure that the government’s got it’s foot flat to the floor, instead of on the accelerator, on the brake, on the accelerator, on the brake.
DAVID BEVAN:
But is the central tension in this, the tension between creating jobs in South Australia and creating a viable defence force? And we saw that tension when Christopher Pyne was running these portfolios, we saw it when Malcolm Turnbull was Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, Scott Morrison and now Anthony Albanese. It’s that tension between creating jobs in a state like South Australia and creating a viable defence force that gets us where we are. I mean, why don’t we just do what Tony Abbott said and buy the stuff off the shelf?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, my view is that we can walk and chew gum, and we’ve got an established industry, but one of the things that became apparent to us during the discussions with the US and the UK in the AUKUS negotiations, was that they saw it as very important for Australia to have a domestic, sovereign capability. There’s also enormous opportunity for us as well, because not just within the US fleet, but the UK and Japan otherwise, all of these countries, allied countries, are going to be spending a lot more time in and around Australia over the course of the coming decades. That’s just the reality of the strategic tension and the geopolitics that are at play at the moment. So, the opportunity is there for us to expand into deep cycle maintenance, into in-service maintenance for ships and assets from other countries. So, I think as an island nation, it should be one of our core strengths.
The difficulty, I think in the argument that you just put, is that when Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard were in power, I strongly believe they had very good intention, but they reduced defence spending to the lowest level since 1939 as a percentage of GDP. We dramatically increased that under Tony Abbott, under Malcolm Turnbull and under Scott Morrison, we committed to the shipbuilding program, we committed to the submarine program, and now Labor’s back in power, they’ve reverted back to type. That’s where the difficulty and the frustration that I didn’t see when I was Defence Minister from those defence industry companies is now surfacing.
DAVID BEVAN:
But we also had, under the Coalition, radical changes which were incredibly disruptive. We tore up the French contract and wasted billions of dollars. That sort of disruption occurred under the Coalition watch. People are looking for stability.
PETER DUTTON:
But I mean, just to put it in context and to understand why we didn’t proceed with the French; the technology on offer from the French was a diesel electric submarine. The United States had made it very clear to us at the time of negotiating with the French, and in our discussions with the Japanese before that, that the nuclear submarine from America, the technology that they’d only shared in the 1950s with the UK was not on offer. It wasn’t available to Australia. So, in the choices available to us at the time, we went with the best available.
The advice was very clear in the end from Defence that given the developments in AI, given the aggressive nature and the contested nature of the South China Sea that was on display there, there wasn’t a diesel submarine technology that was going to survive that environment. Whilst the submarines that we have at the moment are best in class for its age, it wasn’t going to be fit for purpose into the 2040s.
So when we got the opportunity to go with the United States and the United Kingdom in the AUKUS deal, it became an absolute no brainer in that sense, because the problem with the diesel submarine, as you know David, is that needs to surface to snort and to recharge the batteries, whereas the nuclear submarine can travel in a stealth environment, and that’s what makes it so lethal, and that’s why it was worth making the investment under AUKUS.
DAVID BEVAN:
When the decision is announced regarding the frigates – probably next week – how will South Australians judge whether or not they’ve been shortchanged?
PETER DUTTON:
They can see what we had in place when we were in government, and there is an easy compare and contrast here. We were very clear in terms of what we had in place for South Australia, the different blocks and the different program for the offshore patrol vessels, etc..
DAVID BEVAN:
So what’s that mean? Anything less than nine frigates we’re short changed?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, if the work was there in the, in the pipeline, and companies have made investment on that basis and this Government now has decided to cancel those contracts, then what other conclusion would you draw?
I think it’s reasonable that people in South Australia, given the size of the defence industry and the national significance of it, it has to succeed for our country, and it can only do that if it has a pipeline of work. Otherwise, the workers evaporate, they go to other countries or other companies, and then to try and ramp it back up from a zero base becomes expensive and near impossible.
DAVID BEVAN:
Peter Dutton, just before you leave us, two quick questions, two quick issues: detainees, we learnt yesterday more details of serious offenders being released from immigration detention following the High Court’s decision. What should the Government have done?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, the Government should have had a competence that the Minister is not displaying at the moment in relation to the case before the High Court. I think the Minister gave ground and conceded ground willingly, unnecessarily and against our national interest, and that’s what gave rise to the decision in the High Court. That’s why the Government finds itself in the precarious position at the moment where they have released murderers and child sex offenders and others.
It turns out that they haven’t made a single application to the courts to detain one of these people, even though there was urgency to the legislation before Christmas. We also find out that, even though it’s available to the Minister, for some of these most significant criminals to have ankle bracelets, that some of them are wearing them, but others aren’t, and the Minister couldn’t even tell us yesterday in Question Time, how many people, without ankle bracelets, had been charged with a criminal offence?
I just think we can talk about these things as numbers, but in the end, somebody who was sexually assaulted, somebody who is raped, somebody who is the victim of one of these offenders in the future, that is a life changing event for those individuals, and I think the Government needs to take a problem of their own making much more seriously.
DAVID BEVAN:
When you say the Government gave ground, do you mean it didn’t prepare properly for the High Court challenge? This is going back last year. Or do you mean following that decision, it has not aggressively pursued its options through the courts?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, clearly both. The problem is that they conceded the ground in relation to indefinite detention, and that was not a decision that they that they needed to make. We dealt with these cases regularly in Government, and I did as the Immigration Minister. We were able to bring people in in record numbers from all over the world: Yazidi women who were being slaughtered in the Middle East we brought in in record numbers, people out of Syria, sick kids, many others that we brought in through the migration program, and Australians will support an increase in numbers in the migration program, but only if they believe that the Government is competent in managing the program.
I think the Government’s demonstrated again, that they don’t have the wherewithal, or the ability to manage what is a very complex program. Tough decisions have to be made so that you can make good decisions, and Minister Giles, I think has been completely and utterly hopeless, and he demonstrated that again yesterday.
DAVID BEVAN:
Finally, before you leave us, there’s a Senate pre-selection battle going underway in the South Australian Liberal Party. Do you support Anne Ruston, a member of your Shadow Cabinet, a former Cabinet colleague, sitting at number one on the Liberal ticket?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I strongly support my colleagues including Anne, and obviously Alex as well, and David Fawcett…
DAVID BEVAN:
Well, they can’t both be number one.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, the decision for number one is an issue for the members within the South Australia Division. I think any member of the Liberal Party, including from the Leader down, has one vote and Leaders often have – I think there’s a great history in our Party of Leaders directing people where to cast their votes and people doing the opposite.
So all I can say is that, to your question, Anne is a very valued colleague, I’ve worked closely with her, she’s in the leadership group, she’s in the Shadow Ministry now doing a great job in the Shadow Health Portfolio, she would be a Minister in my Government; and equally, Alex and David are great colleagues and each bring different skills and different attributes. We’ve got a great team in South Australia, and we want to increase the team in Boothby and Makin, and perhaps a couple of other seats otherwise.
DAVID BEVAN:
But both sides obviously think it’s important otherwise they wouldn’t be contesting this and getting attention for all the wrong reasons. So they think it’s important. That is Anne Ruston and her supporters think it’s important she be number one, Alex Antic and his supporters think it’s important he be number one. Do you not think its…
PETER DUTTON:
That’s not breaking news though, is it, David? I mean, if you contest [inaudible] of course you want to be number one…
DAVID BEVAN:
I’m just asking if you’re going to pick a side?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I’ve answered the question. I don’t even have a vote in South Australia preselection. I have a delegate who will attend on my behalf, but as Leaders past have said, it’s an issue for the members; great members of the South Australian Division of the Liberal Party, and they’ll cast their votes in due course.
DAVID BEVAN:
Peter Dutton, thanks for your time.
PETER DUTTON:
My pleasure mate. Thank you.
[ends]