DAVID SPEERS:
Peter Dutton, welcome to the program.
PETER DUTTON:
Thanks David.
DAVID SPEERS:
So, Dominic Perrottet says we’re in this energy mess because of the ideological war over climate change. Is he right?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I think as Jennifer pointed out before, in a very sensible contribution, there’s fault all around here David. Over a long period of time people have been taking different positions, including state governments, as was pointed out.
We’ve got a huge gas supply in the north and the west of this country. In a Labor state, in WA, there’s the ability for the certainty to be put into the energy market. We’ve got constraints in terms of the gas pipeline, bringing gas from north to south and we’ve got moratoriums in Victoria, for example, both Liberal and Labor governments, where they haven’t wanted to explore that gas.
As a federal government, for the Coalition’s part, yes, over a long period of time we have had, I think, a huge investment into renewables, a practical approach to gas, to coal, etc.. We invested in something like 26,000 emission reduction policies and programs and you know, we’ll continue to do that.
DAVID SPEERS:
And yet, here we are. I mean, yes, you did invest in the Kurri Kurri gas plant, through Snowy Hydro, that’ll come online next year. Snowy Hydro 2.0 is years away from coming online. You didn’t really do anything about extending the life of coal-fired power, you certainly didn’t do anything on nuclear power. You did debate a national energy guarantee, but then tore yourselves apart and brought down Malcolm Turnbull over that. So, there wasn’t a lot of extra supply confirmed under the Coalition?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, absolutely there was David, and you would be in a dire situation had Labor been in government over the last few years. As you’re seeing from Chris Bowen, this argument that you can just pump more renewables into the grid – that’s fine, I’m not opposed to that – but what we’ve seen over the course of the last couple of weeks is the fact that this is a problem at night time David. It’s not a problem occurring during the daytime…
DAVID SPEERS:
…which is why we need a capacity mechanism right? Which is, again, something the Coalition couldn’t do.
PETER DUTTON:
We were agnostic in terms of the technology or the energy source for it. This is the point. Labor would have turned off coal years ago. Their argument – Chris Bowen’s argument still is this very day – to exclude gas and coal.
This is an argument over the last fortnight about firming-up and as is pointed out – I mean you basically dedicated your introduction to it this morning – the mechanisms are there. They were there for Angus Taylor; all of the same policy settings, all of the same ingredients were known. We knew that Ukraine was an issue and it was a failure of Chris Bowen in his response. And the regulators, if they’re saying that companies have gamed this, well, do you not think the companies were trying to game it when Angus Taylor was the minister in this space? Of course they were, but he was able to deal with it and to keep the lights on.
Under our government, under the Coalition, we reduced the price of electricity. I’d love to tell you there’s a battery that can replace a coal mine tomorrow, or that we can bring on hydro that could support the rest of the country, but the technology is just not there David. So you need a sensible, pragmatic discussion about it and coal and gas will be part of the mix going forward…
DAVID SPEERS:
…okay, well let’s…
PETER DUTTON:
…which one part of what Labor says, but the other part says that it’s not.
DAVID SPEERS:
Just to pick up on what you’ve said there. This has been managed, hasn’t it, over the last few days? We haven’t had loadshedding, we haven’t had blackouts. We did have load shedding during your time in office. That hasn’t happened this time.
PETER DUTTON:
Well David, I wouldn’t get too excited about the first 14 to 21 days of this government, this issue has got a long way to run…
DAVID SPEERS:
…well you have been, you’ve been accusing Chris Bowen of mismanaging this energy crisis, not using the tools at his disposal. Point is, he has.
PETER DUTTON:
I think if you look at what AEMO and others have said, they’ve raised real concerns about the companies. Now, the sense of panic that’s out there from Chris Bowen at the moment wasn’t there when the Coalition was in government. I mean Labor must be the most, I suppose, unlucky party in history…
DAVID SPEERS:
…you don’t think he’s managed this appropriately? You don’t think he’s been able to manage…
PETER DUTTON:
I think he’s a bunny in the headlights. I think Madeleine King has had more common sense over the last week, but she’s speaking at odds with Chris Bowen. The government is trying to speak out of both sides of their mouth. My point is, what’s happening with the economy at the moment? I mean it always happens on Labor’s watch…
DAVID SPEERS:
…we’ll get to the economy…but just on your point they’ve mismanaged…
PETER DUTTON:
…it always happens on Labor’s watch. The fact is that these issues come at governments every day David, and you’ve got to deal with them; and at the moment Labor’s well and truly still got their training wheels on. I want the best for our country, but I worry that Labor is making bad decisions at the moment.
DAVID SPEERS:
Okay. The lights have stayed on, there’s been no loadshedding – there was on your watch – but you mentioned AEMO and what they’ve been saying; the energy market operator boss, appointed under the Coalition Government, he says the last few days are a reminder, quote: “we need to make sure we’re investing in renewables, firming and transmission.” Do you agree?
PETER DUTTON:
Yes. Yes.
DAVID SPEERS:
So you think the government’s right to be investing in transmission?
PETER DUTTON:
I think they need to make the argument to as to the return on the investment and if they can identify to us how quickly it’s going to be rolling out, and how that transmission is going to take place, where the wires will be rolled out, then that’s for the government to detail.
DAVID SPEERS:
Okay, so you could support that?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, let’s have a look at what they propose, but it could be that what they’re talking about takes more than a decade and we can’t have a situation that we’ve had in the last couple of weeks prevail over the next couple of years.
We have to accept that coal and gas will be there until the technology, until the science improves, and then everyone’s signed up to it. It’s not an anti-renewable issue at all. As I say, Chris Bowen and others have been telling pensioners to turn their heaters off over the last week to avoid the shedding you’re talking about..
DAVID SPEERS:
Well Matt Kean was, the New South Wales Liberal government was…
PETER DUTTON:
And too the Federal Government, they were telling people exactly that.
My point is that’s happening on a night time David. So this is nothing to do with renewables the debate over the last couple of weeks…
DAVID SPEERS:
Let me ask you about renewables..
PETER DUTTON:
…I just think let’s have an honest, reasonable, unemotional debate about it.
DAVID SPEERS:
Okay. What about the 43 per cent target that is now Australia’s new emissions target for 2030? Do you support it?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I’m happy to see it go much higher David, but you’ve got to be realistic about what happens in firming. The debate at the moment is about how do we firm-up? How do we get more gas into the system? How do we help make sure that lights don’t go out? And that is nothing to do with the renewables debate at the moment.
I’m very happy for an incredible investment to continue to be made into renewables. Under the Coalition in 2020, we had more than what Labor did in six years and it grows and grows each year. The market’s already decided that and I’m fully supportive of it…
DAVID SPEERS:
…but on the target, do you support the new target?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, we’ll see what the Labor Party puts forward.
DAVID SPEERS:
Well, they have, they’ve signed up. So do you support it?
PETER DUTTON:
Let’s see what they put forward because they’ve got to negotiate with the Greens to get there David; so this does have echoes of Julia Gillard and Kevin Rudd’s period.
DAVID SPEERS:
Well no they don’t, they don’t have to negotiate the Greens. I mean they’ve now signed up to a target. I’m just wondering whether you support it.
PETER DUTTON:
Our position is what we took to the election. We’re not supporting legislation and we’ve been clear about that.
DAVID SPEERS:
The target, I know you aren’t supporting legislation, but the target 43 per cent by 2030. What’s your view?
PETER DUTTON:
Well our view is that we will end up – people haven’t put a figure on it – but I would suspect that we’ll end up with something like 35 per cent just out of what we were doing. We had the target of 26 to 28 per cent and in terms of our own target, we’ll announce that before the next election.
DAVID SPEERS:
But right now, you don’t support Australia’s target?
PETER DUTTON:
I’m making it very clear to the Labor Party now that we aren’t supporting the legislation, which is the position that we took to the Australian people and millions of people voted for us on that basis.
DAVID SPEERS:
No, I know you’re not supporting the legislation, but you are opposed to the target, Australia’s target now, of 43 per cent by 2030.
PETER DUTTON:
David, the target is an issue for the Government. We’re not a government in exile. My job is to support good policy that’s in the best interests of our country and to oppose bad policy. We’ll look at each on its merit, but we’ve been clear at the last election as to our position, and that’s not changing.
DAVID SPEERS:
Why don’t we talk about policy? What about a more powerful trigger to keep more Australian gas in Australia, one that is based on price that says gas gets too expensive, we’ll pull the trigger. Would you back that?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I read Peter Hartcher’s piece yesterday which sounded pretty well informed by Chris Bowen himself, I suspect, so again, if it’s a thought bubble then let’s see some more detail.
If they’re proposing something, we’ll have a look at it, but as I say, I’m supportive of renewables. I want to see though the serious policy that’s required now about how they’re going to firm-up, because if they don’t, when we do have these shocks and if Europe goes into a bigger war than what there is at the moment, we will see lights go out and that’s the last thing I want to see.
DAVID SPEERS:
Let me turn to the structural budget deficit that the Coalition has left behind. The Reserve Bank Governor expressed some concern this week over how to pay for spending commitments on disability, aged care, defence. The Treasury Secretary’s also made some comments that we can no longer rely solely on economic growth to get us out of this this deficit situation. Do you accept what they’re saying that some tough decisions will have to be made? And are up for some support for tough decisions?
PETER DUTTON:
We believe very strongly that we need to have a well-managed budget. As the rating agency has pointed out recently, if Labor spends the money that they’re proposing to spend at the moment, then that will affect the AAA credit rating of Australia, which will make money more expensive. So that’s a very concerning development.
Yes, we support budget sustainability. We’ll see where Labor proposes to spend money and where they propose to cut it. There’s always a spending problem for a Labor Government, and we’ll hold them to account because I worry about households and businesses as we go into a downturn, as we’re seeing evidenced in the United States at the moment.
So, I do fear that tough times are ahead and our job is to try and help families and businesses as best we can.
DAVID SPEERS:
On just another budget matter. New South Wales, you might have seen today, is announcing a shared equity scheme to help first home buyers into the market. It’s basically a mirror image of what Labor took to the election, the one the Coalition said would have Anthony Albanese sitting around your kitchen table, owning half your house. You worried Dominic Perrottet is going to be owning a slice as well?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I think the bigger issue here is the supply side David. There are lots of ways in which you can provide support. If you’re driving up prices, if builders or developers are just pocketing the money that you’re giving to first home buyers, then it’s a self-defeating arrangement.
So, as many studies have pointed out, the demand is insatiable, which drives the prices up, particularly for younger people who want to move closer to the cities, closer to the coast.
The beauty of the policy that we took to the last election was that it allowed people to use their own money in superannuation, but it compelled them to put back that money with the uplift back into their superannuation, so that the compounding continued to be of benefit to them in retirement.
DAVID SPEERS:
Let’s turn to national security. You said you formed the judgement the US could provide two nuclear submarines to Australia by the end of the decade. Where did you get that idea from?
PETER DUTTON:
Well David, I think I spoke to you on your program in the run up, or perhaps even to the start of the election, about the 18-month period that we’re in at the moment. That was the deal as part of AUKUS, where we would discuss with the US and the UK what the steps forward might be.
They’re incredibly willing partners. The United States didn’t enter into this agreement for the first time since 1950s because they didn’t want to see Australia with the capability. They’re very keen to see the reality in the Indo-Pacific addressed.
So I think that they would pull out every stop to support Australia acquiring the capability as quickly as possible.
DAVID SPEERS:
But two subs from the US by the end of this decade? Have they said that anywhere?
PETER DUTTON:
That’s my judgement. As I said, I made a statement the other day…
DAVID SPEERS:
…based on what?
PETER DUTTON:
Based on my judgement of what I thought was possible for our country. I’d visited the electric boat company in Connecticut. I’d spoken with them there. I had obviously looked at what we could do here domestically. I worry that…
DAVID SPEERS:
…so did they tell you they could do this? The Americans?
PETER DUTTON:
Well David, I’m not going into conversations, but I formed the judgement that we could acquire two submarines quickly, and I think it’s necessary that we do so.
DAVID SPEERS:
The question here is whether you are using classified information to make this point?
PETER DUTTON:
No, not at all.
DAVID SPEERS:
I know you’ve said you haven’t, so where is this publicly available information that they can provide two nuclear subs by the end of the decade?
PETER DUTTON:
David, in the article that I published in The Australian, I made it clear that I think this government is trying to crab walk away from the AUKUS deal. I don’t think they were ever truly in their hearts fully supportive of it and as you point out…
DAVID SPEERS:
…let’s stick with your position…
PETER DUTTON:
I suspect the Treasury Secretary has put before them the figures over the next 10 years, and has said to them, you can either spend money on submarines or you can spend it on other programs that Labor promised at the election.
DAVID SPEERS:
That’s not what I asked though, the question is where you got this information that you say is not classified; that the US can provide two nuclear submarines for Australia by the end of the decade?
PETER DUTTON:
Well David, I looked at the information which I had spoken about publicly before. I detailed that in my article to The Australian because I wanted to call out the government and stop them from making a terrible mistake of walking away from the nuclear submarines.
DAVID SPEERS:
But this is partly based on your conversations in Connecticut, is that right?
PETER DUTTON:
There’s nothing top secret in a professional judgement as a former Defence Minister that I have made – or as Defence Minister at the time. Not based on classified information or secrets, but the judgement that I made. The Americans are increasing their capacity within their production line – that’s publicly available – there’s a lot of pressure domestically – which is publicly available – from Joe Courtney and others in the United States who have been pressuring the Administration to increase their capability because of the threat in the Indo-Pacific – none of that is classified. Frankly, I think it’s a common sense conclusion.
If the Australian Government is serious about it and they push for it, and I think they can achieve it, but the thought that you can develop from scratch a new diesel electric submarine – which is what Richard Marles is talking about at the moment – have that as a first in class, in the water by 2030, is a complete joke and I actually think it’s against our national interests.
DAVID SPEERS:
Let me finally turn to the Indigenous Voice to Parliament. I’m really interested in your position on this. Well firstly, what should we interpret, how should we read your decision to appoint Julian Leeser as your Shadow Attorney-General and Indigenous Affairs spokesperson? He is a well-known and strong advocate of a Voice to Parliament.
PETER DUTTON:
Well David, I’ve made very clear two things. One is that the government itself doesn’t have the detail yet. So we want to see that detail and there are lots of questions I’m sure that come from that, the public will have, I don’t think the public has any understanding yet of what the government’s proposing. So let’s see all of that detail, and we’re not going to make a decision until we see it, which I think is a reasonable position.
But the action that I want to see now, which is not a reflection of failure on the Morrison Government or on the Gillard Government or the Howard Government – it’s a collective failure of all of us – I want to see practical outcomes, I really want to see that closing the gap.
I want to see a massive reduction in the violence against women and children, particularly the sexual violence against children in Aboriginal communities. I don’t want to see little kids in Indigenous communities in our country, in the year 2022, locking themselves in shipping containers to get through the night to save themselves from being sexually assaulted and that is what’s happening.
So, I want to see that practical effort and I hope that – I know that Anthony Albanese’s outlined his four priorities so far – it doesn’t include this priority, and I’d really encourage him to put it to the top of the list.
DAVID SPEERS:
He has spoken about it in his victory speech and since. Can I just check you once called a Voice to Parliament a “third chamber”, as Malcolm Turnbull had, and Barnaby Joyce did too. Barnaby Joyce later acknowledged he was wrong to use that term. Do you still see it as a third chamber?
PETER DUTTON:
I just don’t know what the government’s proposing at the moment other than the headline.
DAVID SPEERS:
There’s a principle…
PETER DUTTON:
..big issue, as you know, during the course of the campaign. I’m happy to support anything that supports reconciliation, that does it in a sensible way, but as Linda Burney herself pointed out, she’s having discussions with Anthony Albanese to decide what it is they’re putting forward.
So I think we’re sort of 20 steps ahead in terms of what the Opposition and other parties will do until the government itself knows what it’s doing.
DAVID SPEERS:
Peter Dutton we’ll leave it there. Thanks so much for joining us.
PETER DUTTON:
Thanks David
[ends]