Subjects: Visit to Israel; death of Hamas leader; meeting with Israel’s Prime Minister, President, and senior Government members and officials; the barbaric attacks on Israel and the ramifications around Australia; the Prime Minister’s lack of leadership; ABC.
E&OE.
SHARRI MARKSON:
Peter Dutton, welcome to the programme from Jerusalem in Israel.
PETER DUTTON:
Pleasure, Sharri. Nice to be with you. Thank you.
SHARRI MARKSON:
Look, you’re there at the time the major news has broken that the political leader of Hamas has been killed. What’s your reaction to this news that’s making headlines around the world?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, Sharri, there are media reports, obviously, at the moment. But we know that Hamas is a terrorist organisation, we know that they were responsible for the brutal slaughter of literally – well, over a longer period of time – thousands of people, and we know that they were the mastermind behind the October 7 atrocities. So, like we know with Al-Qaeda and other terrorist organisations, they pose a threat to our way of life, they certainly pose an existential threat to the Israeli people, and you would expect the Israelis to take action, particularly given the slaughter that took place on October 7.
SHARRI MARKSON:
Mr Dutton, you’ve met with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. This is a very significant meeting – the first Australian politician to meet with him since October 7. What did you discuss?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, we had about an hour meeting, which was quite lengthy, and he had his national security team there as well. So, it was high level and I was very grateful for the access and the time that he gave to us.
As you know, Israel has provided intelligence to Australia over a period of time, which has resulted in the lives of Australian diggers being saved in the Middle East. I think it’s a relationship that we need to rebuild, that we need to restore, and that we need to respect. I sent a very clear message on behalf of the Coalition that should we win the next election, we look forward to the relationship becoming stronger and making sure that we can build off the platform of previous Prime Ministers, where the relationship has been close and has been strong and to our mutual benefit.
So, we discussed, obviously, a broad range of issues – obviously in relation to the current security context, what’s happening with the Houthis, what’s happening with Hamas and Hezbollah, the threats here to Israel otherwise, and obviously a broad-ranging discussion on areas of mutual interest otherwise.
SHARRI MARKSON:
I understand from my own contacts that the Prime Minister Netanyahu thanked you for your support of Israel and your personal leadership on anti-Semitism. In your answer to me before, you use the word ‘rebuild’ – that you indicated to Netanyahu that if a Coalition, team was in Government, you would rebuild the relationship between Israel and Australia. Was there, therefore, an element of concern from Netanyahu and his security team, with the various foreign policy positions and public criticisms that have been taken by the Albanese Government, particularly in the wake of October 7?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, Sharri, I’ve certainly expressed – publicly and privately – my view in relation to the level of anti-Semitism and the lack of leadership that the Prime Minister’s demonstrated. I think most Australians recognise that now. It was the time for the Prime Minister to stand up when that unruly mob stepped onto the forecourt in Sydney at the Opera House. He didn’t, and it’s allowed a level of anti-Semitism to rise in our country that’s provided a level of, really, distress, I’ve got to say, within the Jewish community – as you well know.
So, I’ve spoken publicly and privately about. The level of anti-Semitism that we’re seeing in our country has not been evidenced in our country’s history. In fact, it’s very confronting to me that when you speak to Holocaust survivors, or their descendants, they are very clear in their advice that, frankly, they’re thinking about coming back to Israel because they think it would be safer than staying in Australia. People have lived in peace and harmony since 1945, and for the first time, in 2024, they feel unsecure in our country, and there’s a reason for that.
So, my job is to make sure that we build our equities and to make sure that we re-establish relationships where they’ve been damaged. I’m not going to go into the private conversations, obviously, but I’ve been publicly critical of both Penny Wong, our Foreign Minister, and also our Prime Minister. I think they have demonstrated a lack of leadership, and I think we should have a zero tolerance for anti-Semitism in Australia. That’s been a consistent message for the Coalition since October 7, and we won’t be deviating from that path.
SHARRI MARKSON:
I understand that there was a sense out of your discussions that these threats that we’re seeing aren’t just a threat to Israel, but a civilizational battle that’s raging in the West as well. Was that a theme, not just with your discussion with Netanyahu, but also with the Israeli President, Isaac Herzog?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, it’s certainly a broader theme and I think it’s a very valid one. I think in the West we need to realise that our civilisation as we know it, our democracy, our rule of law, the adherence to international law – all of that is under threat. It is a time for Australia to reassess where we are in the world, to make sure that we align ourselves more significantly with our partners. The AUKUS deal with the United States and the United Kingdom was integral to us forming a stronger alliance with those two countries. But so, too, when the Coalition Government was in power, we were able to bring together the Quad with Japan and India as well as the United States. All of those relationships are vital, but so too is the relationship with Israel. They’re our closest ally in the Middle East, and, as I say, they’ve been a force for good in terms of providing support to our interests in the Middle East over the course of the last couple of decades. We shouldn’t neglect that and we should never forget it.
SHARRI MARKSON:
What sense of determination did you get from Netanyahu and his team, about the urgency of securing the release of the hostages and also the need to eliminate Hamas?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, Sharri, it’s a great question. I mean, as we know, there are still 115 people who are held in captivity, who are buried away in tunnels. We don’t know how many are alive, how many are dead, what brutality they’ve experienced at the hands of these terrorists. The barbaric acts we saw when we visited the kibbutz and the Nova Music Festival site yesterday, they’re horrific scenes. Young people who were butchered, we’ve seen the videos, the bodycam footage of some of the terrorists that was recovered, hunting people down in the streets, going in, murdering children and women, abducting people and taking them back as hostages.
So, I have to say, as you would expect, from the President down, the Prime Minister down here, they are absolutely determined to make sure that they can keep the people of Israel safe and secure, to make sure that there’s not a recurrence of what we saw on October 7 and they have the capacity to do that. Prime Minister Netanyahu, as you know, has been an experienced hand and I think it’s valued here in Israel in terms of making sure that they can meet the threats, and stare down the threats that are existential to people here.
When we hear the chants of ‘River to the Sea’ – this is where I’m standing – and they want to drive people from their homes here, literally into the sea, off the map. So, you can understand why they take so seriously the issue of safety and security here.
SHARRI MARKSON:
Look, we’re showing people at home at the moment, footage of you visiting the site of the Nova Music Festival, where 1,200 young, innocent lives were lost – they were slaughtered. What was that like for you, Peter Dutton, going to that site of the massacre where so many people were just killed in cold blood?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, to say it was confronting is just an understatement. We’d watched the classified videos before, as I said, and it showed literally the killing of these innocent, young people at the festival, but elsewhere in the attack as well. So, to have that image in your mind as you go there and physically walk the ground, there’s just nowhere to hide. It’s flat ground. You’ve got thousands of people, shouting and chanting and firing shots. They were particularly well-armed, as we know, and people were just mowed down. They were trying to escape into their cars and the footage of it being shot as they were approaching checkpoints that Hamas had set up. It was graphic, it was horrific, and to see the faces of those young people on the signs – it’s the face of innocence. These people don’t have a political axe to grind. In fact, many of them are younger people, probably left-leaning, very sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. Would have been, in the case of those involved in some of the kibbutz activities, providing support, financial support, to some people in the Palestinian territory as well.
So, it doesn’t make any sense. But most acts of barbaric and dehumanised conduct from terrorist groups – they don’t make sense. We saw it and we still see it today with IS. We’ve seen it, over a long period of time, the senseless attacks on men and women, on people of Islamic faith as well, who were slaughtered by Hamas. It’s a terrible, terrible circumstance and we hope that the people who are being held captive can be returned home soon and that there can be a ceasefire following that.
SHARRI MARKSON:
Yeah, absolutely. I understand you also had quite emotional and moving meetings with both hostage families and even a hostage – an elderly person who was taken captive by Hamas, and then a father who had four members of his family who are being held hostage. What were those meetings like for you? You know, speaking to those people who are actually dealing with the reality of not knowing if they’re ever going to see their family members again?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, again, I mean, it was raw emotion and you could see the pain in their eyes. The elderly lady that we spoke to had been released, but she, obviously, had gone through an unbelievable experience that I didn’t ask her to share and I don’t want the graphic details. I could see the pain that she’d been through as she was speaking about the initial attack. When you look at the father and you see the father holding up the photos of young loved ones that he just wants back.
These are innocent people, and as I say, they’re not soldiers, they’re not political players, they’re not people who are anything other than young people enjoying their lives. That they’re still held captive, particularly for the young girls not knowing what sort of brutalisation takes place – but that’s the reality of their life. It’s incomprehensible as a parent, and I really felt for them during our discussions. It was a very moving exchange, as you say.
SHARRI MARKSON:
Look, you’ve been in Israel about three days now, you’ve had many high-level meetings and meeting with local community leaders as well. Has there been a sense of concern and confusion about where the Israel-Australia relationship has been over the past nine-and-a-half months?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I’ll just talk generally because obviously we’ve spoken with a lot of people, and there are a lot of friends here of Australia. There are a lot of Australians that we’ve run into here as well, who are living in Israel or visiting friends. I was just at a restaurant last night, a couple of people stopped. I was out walking this morning, and was stopped by an individual and others that we’ve spoken to. There is a bewilderment, to be honest, about the Government’s approach. I think people really have been quite shocked about the departure from the position that Australia has long held, the activity at the UN by Penny Wong and, the statements of ‘restraint’ when Hamas was still holding people captive and the attack was still under way.
It’s quite remarkable in the circumstances that the Government has taken that decision for their own crass domestic political purposes. That’s a decision that they need to live with, because I believe the relationship is too important and too necessary to be playing politics with. That’s why I say, and I’m very definite about this, that from day one in Government, we will make sure we prioritise the rebuilding of this relationship because it’s in Australia’s long-term interests. We don’t know when we’ll need to rely on Israel again, but we want to be a friend that’s not fair-weather, a friend that’s there in all seasons, and that’s as it should be.
SHARRI MARKSON:
Mr Dutton, I understand from my own contacts that Australia’s anti-Israel media coverage and even the impartiality of the taxpayer-funded ABC was raised during your meeting with Netanyahu and Ron Dermer. I understand that Ron Dermer spoke about his own experience of being interviewed on 7.30. He saw that as a hostile interview. Did you find it extraordinary that the taxpayer-funded ABC was called into question at the highest levels of the Israeli Government?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, Sharri, I actually had watched Ron’s interview on the ABC. I found it quite astounding and I think the ABC needs to have a recheck. I think Kim Williams really needs to show some backbone and stand up to people like Laura Tingle and others who have hijacked the ABC. This is taxpayers’ money, and it needs to be objective in its reporting. Clearly, it’s not, and the inherent bias now, the cultural bias within the ABC is the reason that their numbers are plummeting. Most Australians find it a distraction from their daily lives and their own views, instead of being the informative news source that it has been for all of us over a long period of time.
So, I thought Ron did an exceptional job in that interview in pushing back. In fact, I’d encourage him to do more. But I think, yes, I think there’s people who really have been quite amazed by some of the reporting, particularly the ABC and, that’s been expressed to us by different people on this visit.
SHARRI MARKSON:
Peter Dutton, thank you very much, not just for joining us with this exclusive interview from Israel, but also for making this trip, for bearing witness to the atrocities that have taken place that have killed so many Jewish people – the largest loss of life in a single day since the Holocaust. It’s the trip the Prime Minister should have made, like many others, most other Western leaders did make that trip in the wake of October 7.
Thank you for going there and making the trip.
PETER DUTTON:
Thank you very much, Sharri. Take care. I appreciate it. Thank you.
[ends]