Subjects: China; Indo-Pacific relations; AUKUS; Indigenous Voice to Parliament; climate change; Anthony Albanese’s broken promise on electricity bills.
SARAH FERGUSON
When you look at the task ahead for Peter Dutton, it’s no wonder the job of Opposition Leader is described as the worst in politics.
After the Coalition’s worst election result in 70 years, the Opposition benches are battered and diminished and the tradition role of Opposition has become more complicated because of the increasing danger in our region, evidenced yesterday when the Chinese Ambassador made chillingly clear his country’s plans for Taiwan.
Peter Dutton joins me now, live. Peter Dutton, welcome to the programme.
PETER DUTTON
Thanks, Sarah. You sold that well!
SARAH FERGUSON
The Chinese Ambassador yesterday, I’m sure you were watching him, he made it clear that his country is willing to take Taiwan by force. That begs the obvious question: can you see any circumstances under which Australia would go to war with China to defend Taiwan?
PETER DUTTON
Well, Sarah, I don’t think anybody should be shocked by what they heard yesterday because it’s a repeat of the statements that President Xi himself has made and the spokespeople for the Communist Party of China have repeated over a long period of time.
SARAH FERGUSON
Somewhat more chilling to see it said at the Press Club in Canberra. It does bring it home.
PETER DUTTON
Well, I agree with that, but I think again a lot of people have not been listening to the messages and they have been very clear. I don’t think anyone would be surprised if there was an incursion into Taiwan.
China is clear that their ‘century of humiliation’ doesn’t come to an end until there is a re-unification, in their own words, so it is important for us to have the deterrence in place because any adversaries should know that a strike on Australia wouldn’t be accepted and there would be a retaliation. And also that we need to be very close and tight with our allies, not just the United States, the UK, but also India and Japan.
SARAH FERGUSON
Let’s just stay there, because of what you’ve just said, we will come to some of those points, but you said something like that when you were Defence Minister, that the only way to preserve peace is to prepare for war. Do you still believe that that’s what we should be doing, preparing for war with China?
PETER DUTTON
Well, that was something like a fifth century proverb from memory, so I didn’t lay claim to the original use of that term and it’s been…
SARAH FERGUSON
But you used it knowingly.
PETER DUTTON
Well, because it went to the very important point that Richard Marles is now making as Defence Minister, we have to make sure that our Defence Force is suitable to the 21st Century and in the year 2022 we have to be able to have the equipment and the training that will give us the best chance of defences and most importantly, as I say, that deterrence, so that nothing happens and that peace prevails in our region which is what we all want.
SARAH FERGUSON
So, do you approve of the way the Government is handling this? There has been an attempt to turn down the temperature. Do you support what the Government is doing?
PETER DUTTON
Well, I don’t agree with that analysis, but certainly I’ve been very clear about our desire as an opposition to support the Government because it is an issue of national security, and of national importance – not just for our country but for our region as well – so, we will play a constructive role. Yes, the Ambassador and the Chinese Communist Party have been critical of Penny Wong for some of her commentary, as you know, over the last week. We support the Foreign Minister and the Defence Minister and the Prime Minister. Obviously, there’s a lot of work that needs to be done and a lot of work that we started when we were in government, particularly under AUKUS. We want to see that through, because that will be the security underpinning for our country for the next five to six decades.
SARAH FERGUSON
Alright just before we come to AUKUS, when we look at Russia’s invasion, what the West has done especially NATO, is to give – confronting a nuclear power – is to give Ukraine the weapons to conduct that war. Doesn’t that become the more prudent template here? That is, that we would arm Taiwan rather than undertake a war with China to defend Taiwan?
PETER DUTTON
Well, I think the more prudent course of action as has been demonstrated in Europe is that you embark on a mission to deter and to maintain peace. In Ukraine at the moment, there are women and children who have lost their lives and many men, of course as well, and that barbaric behaviour from the Russian President continues to this very moment. So, we shouldn’t lose sight of what is still happening there. It is not just a matter of arming. I mean, that is one strategy and it has worked over history in different theatres, but for my thinking, I believe very strongly that we are better to speak frankly about China’s intent – they’re clear about it themselves, as we have discussed – and it is important for Australians to hear that message, and I think the Europeans have heard that now, and that’s part of the message that the Government’s continuing to deliver…
SARAH FERGUSON
Alright, well lets…
PETER DUTTON
….well, just let me finish this point. If you shine a light on that bullying behaviour and that foreign interference and all of what’s been happening online, cyber attacks by China on Australia etc. I think that gives us the best chance of deterring an action which would be catastrophic in our region, that is a conflict. We want peace and stability.
SARAH FERGUSON
Alright, well let’s talk about AUKUS, you raised it already. You’ve argued that the acquisition of nuclear submarines is essential to Australia, particularly because as you say, Australia would not be able to compete with China in the South China Sea after 2035. Given what we saw after Nancy Pelosi’s visit and the drills around Taiwan, has that timetable now in fact shortened?
PETER DUTTON
Well, it could well have if the Chinese are calculating that they have military superiority over the United States and that in a conflict they would be successful. You’ve got to contemplate what that would look like. I mean, that would change the world order.
SARAH FERGUSON
Yes.
PETER DUTTON
There would be many countries in our own region that have enjoyed peace over the course of the last 80 years…
SARAH FERGUSON
But does it mean that we need to change the way we look at the AUKUS arrangements? You said we needed those submarines in place because of a timetable that included 2035. It looks like it’s getting closer.
PETER DUTTON
Yes, look, it could. The 2035 figure was advised to us by the defence experts and that’s because the Chinese are developing technologies to scan every square inch of the water surface, the ocean’s surface and it makes it is more difficult for diesel-powered submarines when they come to the surface to recharge. So, hence the technology, the 32-year reactor that doesn’t need to be refueled, it allows the stealth capability of the nuclear submarine to continue, and to lurk at the bottom of the ocean and to strike if necessary – and that’s a significant deterrence. So, yes, I very strongly support Richard Marles. He’s adopting similar language that I used not too long ago to say if we can get those submarines off the production line, then we should, and I certainly strongly believe that that is possible…
SARAH FERGUSON
Yes.
PETER DUTTON
…and that that’s the course of action that the Government should be pursuing.
SARAH FERGUSON
Let me move back into the domestic realm. At the start of Parliament, you participated in the smoking ceremony, you allowed your face to be painted and then in your speech you quoted Noel Pearson and seemed to endorse Pearson’s call for constitutional recognition. What would prevent you now from taking the next step and backing the referendum on the Voice?
PETER DUTTON
Well, I quoted Noel Pearson for whom I have a great deal of respect, and you can go back and look at the quote and there are many elements to that because there were several paragraphs that I quoted him on.
SARAH FERGUSON
And what about that question I just asked, what would prevent you now from taking the next step and that is backing the referendum on the Voice?
PETER DUTTON
Well, the point I was going to make, is that Noel Pearson obviously has put forward a thoughtful piece to consider in relation to the Voice and he and other Indigenous leaders have done a lot of work on this and from my perspective…
SARAH FERGUSON
But what about you, Peter Dutton?
PETER DUTTON
…from my perspective, I want to respectfully listen to the arguments because I think reconciliation is important. I also think the practical assistance to kids in those communities…
SARAH FERGUSON
We’ve talked about the practical before, I want you to stay with this particular issue. It sounds like you are trying to get on the right side of history, so is there anything preventing you from endorsing that idea of a Voice, an advisory Voice to Parliament?
PETER DUTTON
Well, I don’t want you just to brush away the very legitimate concerns about practical support because…
SARAH FERGUSON
I’m not brushing it away. I think, we’ve got an offer in front of us from the Prime Minister at Garma with a question and three sentences in the Constitution. Are you ready to endorse it?
PETER DUTTON
So, a couple of points. Firstly, in relation to the practical assistance. That’s important to young boys and girls in domestic violence situations now…
SARAH FERGUSON
And Noel Pearson says that you are indeed sincere about that, I recognise that, but I do want to stay with the referendum…
PETER DUTTON
…I am, and I’m sure the Government is as well but there is nothing on the table from the Government at the moment in relation to that and I do feel very passionately about it because I fought against domestic violence and sexual abuse of children for many years and I want to see real action in that regard. In terms of…
SARAH FERGUSON
It’s not an either/or situation though, is it?
PETER DUTTON
Well, it’s not. But there is no action on the table for us to consider from the Government and I would urge them to do that because time is of the essence.
So, I want to listen respectfully to the arguments, there are legitimate questions. For example, the Prime Minister says the Voice will only involve itself in issues of public policy that affect Indigenous Australians. I don’t understand what that means because defence policy affects Indigenous Australians, as does health and education, law and order. Every element of public policy affects Indigenous Australians as it does every Australian. So, the Prime Minister started at Garma, as you know saying that this was a question he was proposing, it may change. He was saying that he’s not going to go down the cul-de-sac of providing detail. He changed that position. I think there are legitimate questions that are being asked at the moment…
SARAH FERGUSON
..But on principle right now, as we sit here, is it your instinct that you are willing to support the idea of that referendum and the question that has been put forward?
PETER DUTTON
Well, it is my instinct to listen to the conversation and to listen respectfully to the strong cases being put, but there are many, many questions that the Prime Minister and quite legitimately the Indigenous Affairs Minister as well, Linda Burney says can’t yet be answered, so let’s hear some of those answers…
SARAH FERGUSON
Alright, let’s talk about the idea of questions because clearly part of the election rout you suffered was to do with not listening. Do you accept that you lost the election largely because of a long history of Coalition foot dragging on climate change?
PETER DUTTON
No, Sarah, I think as you go around the country there are different stories in different electorates. I was with Melissa McIntosh in Lindsay today who had a swing to her…
SARAH FERGUSON
But are you rejecting the idea that climate change wasn’t the principal cause of your election loss?
PETER DUTTON
I think climate change was one of the issues and I think there are other issues. Some people were particularly aggrieved about lockdowns and the response of the Government to COVID…
SARAH FERGUSON
So, if you acknowledge that climate change was a principal part of that, then how important does it become for you? What kind of a priority is it for you to win back those seats you lost to the teals?
PETER DUTTON
Well, as I said in my very first speech when I became Opposition Leader, it’s an absolute priority and we’re not discounting any seats. I want to win those teal seats back. I want to win seats backs in the suburbs and across the country and the arithmetic requires that we do that to get to the 76 or 77 seats. So, we will have a legitimate, credible policy. We went to the last election with a policy of 26-28 per cent reductions…
SARAH FERGUSON
Roundly rejected by the Australian people…
PETER DUTTON
Well, I think, ironically that figure is likely to come in well north of 35 per cent, maybe 40 per cent-plus. So, I think one of the problems that we have had in the Liberal Party is we haven’t sold well enough what we’ve done: the billions of dollars that we’ve invested into new technologies, into all of the research and development that is necessary as we transition. We’ll have a very credible policy, I can promise you, by the time of the next election and we will announce that in due course.
SARAH FERGUSON
In some of your speeches you seem to have moved on in some ways from those inner-city seats to concentrate on the suburban voters that you have called “the forgotten people”. You were in power for nine years, so wasn’t it really your government that forgot those people?
PETER DUTTON
I grew up, I think as part of that class, to be honest, in a working-class suburb. My parents both worked hard. We didn’t grow up with money at all and we learnt the value of that very quickly and they were successful in business later on. But, you know, there were plenty of periods where there was significant downturn in the building industry and…
SARAH FERGUSON
But you had nine years in government to look after those forgotten people.
PETER DUTTON
Yeah, I’ll just finish that sentence. The point is that people are affected by government policies and economic prevailing conditions at different stages in the cycle and I think the forgotten people at the moment are those people who are paying $2.30 a litre for diesel. I think they’re struggling to pay their power bills. We saw a business in Penrith today, a very significant manufacturer and local employer, who had budgeted about $70,000 for the quarter for their electricity bill – it will come in well over $200,000. Now, people are going to lose their jobs as a result of that. The Prime Minister promised to reduce electricity bills at the last election on 15 occasions. He has walked away from that now. So, who are the forgotten people? They are those families who are struggling to pay their bills, struggling to put their kids through school, and I want to have policies – including taxation policies – that provide support to those very people.
SARAH FERGUSON
Transformation from hitman, to hitman of opposition, to every man in government. Thank you very much indeed for sharing your thoughts this evening.
PETER DUTTON
Thank you for your warm regards. Thank you.
SARAH FERGUSON
Thank you.
[ends]