Subjects: Labor’s negative gearing shambles; the PM’s morning TV trainwreck; Labor’s visa and immigration policy shambles; Israel; University of Sydney’s failures on antisemitism; Ray’s big 7-0 birthday.
E&OE.
RAY HADLEY:
Peter Dutton, the Opposition Leader federally, is on the line. Mr Dutton, good morning.
PETER DUTTON:
Good morning, Ray.
RAY HADLEY:
I don’t know, have you heard the interview with Peter Stefanovic this morning – or heard about it – and the Prime Minister on Sky?
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah, I’ve heard about it, and Peter is a great journo so he had some good questions to ask, I’m told.
RAY HADLEY:
Well, he kept answering the question in part saying, ‘well, if I’m a liar, the Opposition Leader’s a liar as well, in relation to what we’ve been talking about and that’s negative gearing’. What’s your policy from the Liberal Party on negative gearing?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, our policy is no change and we give that absolute guarantee. We’re not going to wreck the economy through a policy that’s advocated by the Greens. If Anthony Albanese wants to take up the economic advice of the Greens, then pity help the rest of us.
I don’t know whether the Prime Minister’s got a problem with the truth here, or whether there’s a rift between the Treasurer and the Prime Minister, but it doesn’t pass the pub test that the Prime Minister didn’t know that there was work being done on what would be the biggest change to the tax system in our generation and that the Prime Minister, he has this form of words where it’s, ‘look, I’m in the car, so how could you ask me about that, because, like there’s not a phone in the car. I couldn’t call the Treasurer to check out what he’d said or what he’s supposed to have done’. It’s the lamest form of words I’ve ever heard. I just think the wheels are coming off this Government very quickly. You see Cameron Milner, who’s a former Chief of Staff to Bill Shorten, he’s out there advocating for a change of leader. That doesn’t happen without a lot of mutterings in the background.
So, I think the Albanese Government’s in all sorts of trouble, but the problem is that when they’re worried about themselves, there are a lot of people out across the country who are really doing it tough at the moment, when the Government should be getting on top of these issues.
RAY HADLEY:
Look, I just want to have a discussion with you about things we’ve shared – previously on this programme, and privately – and I think I’m right in saying that in government, when Albanese was in the opposition benches, there was a sort of mutual respect between you and Albanese. I think you thought he was a fairly decent fellow at the time and he, I think, thought you were a fairly decent fellow. But now you’re combatants as the Prime Minister and Leader of Opposition. I think things probably do change. Is that a good summation of where you were at some time ago?
PETER DUTTON:
The honest truth is, Ray, that I have a good working relationship with the Prime Minister. I can meet with him and he invites me around to the office, or if he has an issue that he wants to raise, and we do that very professionally. I’ve never breached any confidences of conversations we’ve had. We’ve obviously negotiated on the NDIS and other issues with the Government over this term of government. We’ve done it in relation to national security issues where the Prime Minister wants to pass urgent legislation on the advice of the agencies.
So, I have respect for the Prime Minister, but I don’t think he is up to the job and I think that’s what’s being demonstrated here. I think Julia Gillard was a very decent person, but just not up to the job of being Prime Minister – and not being Scott Morrison is not good enough to be successful in the most important job in the land. I think it’s demonstrated at the moment that the Government has no idea whatsoever in relation to managing the economy. They’ve been mugged by the reality – interest rates are going down in other countries when they’re not going down here.
RAY HADLEY:
Well you see, that lead me – you’ve already answered the next question, because I was going to say that despite the goodwill you’ve extended and vice versa, it’s the Peter Principle. He’s been elevated beyond his station in life. He was a dud Transport Minister, as we found under Julia Gillard, and somehow by default, after Shorten, his faltering, he’s been promoted to where he is now and eventually the Prime Minister. But you know – and I don’t dislike the fellow, but he’s just not up to the task. He’s not across any detail, and as I illustrated yesterday in interviews he conducted I think in Tasmania, having travelled from Perth, if he’s got a script in front of him, or he’s reading from some particular script that a person provided – we made a bit of fun about that, the American President thing I often play about how he mirrors the words of someone from a particular movie. But when he gets up to ad lib, he’s just not up to it. He’s not across the detail, and he showed that in relation to interest rates and a whole range of other things before he was installed as Prime Minister. He just intellectually is not across the issues you expect the Prime Minister to be across.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I just think if you look back – in Labor’s case Bob Hawke or Paul Keating, or in the case of the Liberal Party, John Howard or Tony Abbott – if you’ve got a decision to take that’s a tough decision, you explain it to the public and work through the rationale. If you try to please everybody all the time, you’ll end up doing nothing. The reason we’ve taken a decision in relation to nuclear power, the reason we took a decision against the Voice, was because when we weighed it all up, we believe it’s in our country’s best interest to make that decision. Then your job is to get out there and argue the case and sell it.
If the Prime Minister believes that the abolition or restriction of negative gearing is in our country’s best interest and it’s going to help the housing market, get out there and advocate that, but don’t dance around this sort of cute form of words which ends up demonstrating you as somebody very dishonest in the debate, because I don’t believe for a moment that the Prime Minister didn’t have knowledge of what the Treasurer was doing. Unless the Treasurer has deliberately blindsided Mr Albanese – in which case, that relationship is in very serious trouble.
So, I just think be upfront and be honest with people and people can mark you down or they can support the position you’ve taken but this dance around and trying to be cute and a sort of concocted form of words – it doesn’t work. It’s not how our good Prime Ministers have conducted themselves, and I think Mr Albanese is in all sorts of trouble at the moment.
RAY HADLEY:
Well, just on the story on the front page of The Herald yesterday, of what you’re talking about, about this decision about negative gearing, and it was until the questions were put to the Prime Minister in Tasmania, it was a bit like, well, the Treasury officials woke up one morning in Canberra and said, ‘I’m going to go to work today, love, and I’m going have a look at negative gearing’. ‘Really? Why?’ ‘I just think I’ll have a look at it. Look, no one’s told me to do anything, but I’m going to have a look at it. I’m going to take a close look at negative gearing’. ‘What? The Prime Minister doesn’t know? The Treasurer?’. ‘No, no, no. It’s independent of both these men. I’m going into the office, I’m looking at negative…’ I mean, do they really think that sort of bulls**t passes muster? Do they really think that some Treasury official decided all of a sudden he’d investigate negative gearing without some direction from either the Treasurer, Prime Minister, or both?
PETER DUTTON:
There’s just no way, Ray, and, again, it just doesn’t pass the pub test. The public servants will undertake the tasks that they’re instructed to investigate. That’s how it works. I mean, what else are they working on if the Prime Minister didn’t know about this piece of Treasury work? What other taxes or changes to the system are they working on that would come as a complete surprise to the Prime Minister?
The trouble for the Prime Minister is you can’t blame the public service. His story changed during the course of the day yesterday. He did a series of media interviews, and he did breakfast TV again this morning, his story keeps changing. It’s very reminiscent of what happened on the Voice, where he says, ‘well, you know, this is the greatest change to our Constitution. I don’t know anything about it. I’ve just been asked to put this question to the people by Indigenous leaders, and I’m not advocating for it or whatever’. But then he gets in front of the audience of Indigenous leaders and says he’s the greatest advocate for it, he’s happy to be the messenger and take it forward. It’s similar to what they’re doing on the Makarrata Commission at the moment. He hasn’t been honest about that either. But there’s money in the budget for the Makarrata Commission. I just think people are not mugs and they see through somebody who is dishonest, not being sincere with them, and they mark them down as a result of that.
I think the Prime Minister’s got all sorts of credibility problems at the moment, but not just him, frankly, Jim Chalmers as well who’s been a snake oil salesman on this issue and many other things. There are a lot of families and businesses hurting at the moment, a lot of businesses closing; cafes and restaurants, etc., all because of Jim Chalmers and they’ve got a lot to answer for.
RAY HADLEY:
I notice as well, now, if we believe the opinion polls, okay, there’s going to be a really tight election sometime after February next year and I guess your supporters are hoping that you’ll get across the line. But we could have this farcical situation that we had with Windsor and Oakeshott all those horrible years ago, but this time instead of Windsor and Oakeshott, it could be the Greens.
Now the Greens want to get rid – in every form – of negative gearing, capital gains tax. They want to make all sorts of changes, and we’ve already seen this Government, even though before the election he said, ‘I won’t do a deal with the Greens, I won’t’. When he wants to get something through, it’s exactly what he does. He bends over, touches his toes and says, ‘away we go, let’s do the best we can with the Greens’ support’.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, Ray, the Prime Minister’s got himself – there’s all sort of mental images you’ve conjured up there, which I’m trying to ignore as I answer your question – but he will take the preferences from the Greens because that’s how Labor gets elected. And the Prime Minister’s out there bagging the Greens in relation to their stance on Gaza, etc, but then again they are relying on Green preferences to win seats.
If he’s sincere and he believes that the Greens are as bad as he makes out, then say ‘we’re not going to deal with these people’, but as sure as night follows day, if there’s a minority Labor government after the election, he will be standing up there with Adam Bandt or Adam Bandt will guarantee supply and confidence. The Green-Teals, Monique Ryan and Zoe Daniels and all of these people will fall over themselves to support a Labor government. They will never support a Liberal Government. So, people who are voting for a Teal, believing they’re voting for a Liberal Government – forget that.
Twelve months ago when people weren’t talking about anything other than a majority Labor Government, they’re now talking about a minority Labor or Liberal Government, and I believe within six months we can get ourselves to a position where we’re talking about a majority Liberal Government and that’s the single focus that we’ve got at the moment.
RAY HADLEY:
Well, don’t forget the Greens want to make sure that Michelle Bullock and the Reserve Bank, all powers removed from them. I mean, and Solomon Lew, a former member of the Board of the Reserve Bank, has said ‘stop bagging the RBA’. But if the Greens have any say in it, in any circumstance, well they’ll want just the Treasurer to be making the official interest rate call, not the Reserve Bank as an independent authority.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, it just shows how reckless they are, and that Anthony Albanese would take the Greens’ negative gearing policy and advocate that or that Jim Chalmers would be costing them is just a sign of madness.
Don’t forget, they also want to defund the police. They want to break our alliance with the United States and dramatically reduce our investment in defences. We’re living in the most precarious period since the Second World War, we should be investing more into our defences and providing deterrence to anybody that would seek to do us harm. In a Coalition Government between the Greens and Labor and the Green-Teals, all of these issues would be on the table and the Prime Minister would have no choice but to negotiate with them.
RAY HADLEY:
The front page of The Australian; visas – ‘Australia’s courts and tribunals bracing for tens of thousands of international students to appeal against the refusal or cancellation of their visas amid concerns that foreign visa holders are gaming the system’. Now, the figures we’ve got here, 700,000 international students currently in the country, the AAT has already been swamped with reviews. Now the figures, they said, September 1st last year, August 31st, 15,700 compared with 2,200 the year before. At the moment, July, August this year, 4,863 appeals against student visa decisions lodged with the AAT. Most of them from Indian and Chinese students. I mean, let alone the people they’re getting here in other forms. It’s just a massive problem. We will be overwhelmed.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, Ray, I just think when you look at the detail, this is the modern version of the boat arrivals. So people have found a weakness in the system, they are exploiting the weakness, they obviously will be getting advice from lawyers in this space and others who have tested the system and found success, and ultimately have stayed in Australia or they have extended their stay. The taxpayer’s picking up every dollar of this. For a lot of these people that Andrew Giles and Anthony Albanese have let out of immigration detention, taxpayers are paying for motel accommodation for meals and providing medical support to them as well.
So, we’re talking about hundreds of millions of dollars a year, money that should be spent on Australians and not on people who are here illegally, and the Government is happy for it, Ray. Let’s be clear about it, because they don’t believe in a strong border protection policy. It’s getting away from them, it’s having a huge impact on housing and the fact that the Prime Minister’s brought in a million people over the last two years and only 300,000 homes being built, shows that, I just think, they’ve lost control of the migration programme, as well.
RAY HADLEY:
Penny Wong had a shot at you in New York at the UN. She said that you ‘divide’ Australians at home and ‘diminish’ us abroad. Now, I just wonder whether Penny Wong, as the Foreign Minister, will finally say, ‘look, I’m throwing my lot in with Hamas and Hezbollah. That’s who I’m backing’. I mean, she waxes lyrical about the people in Gaza, the Palestinians, but at the end of the day, Hamas is the ruling Government, the ruling Government in Gaza and has been for 17, 18 years, approaching 20 years. Hezbollah has a strong toehold in Lebanon and there are, you know, concerns that that will escalate as it has already.
I mean, you never hear much condemnation of terrorist groups by the Foreign Minister. It’s always about you, or it’s about Israel being aggressive. It’s never about terrorist organisations. That’s what they are, it’s inescapable!
PETER DUTTON:
It’s like saying, ‘well, you know, should I be on the side of Osama bin Laden or the United States or, you know, France or ISIL because there’s a terrorist attack that’s just taken there. I mean, where the Government loses its moral compass here – I really think this is – it’s one of the worst periods of government I’ve ever seen. We are harming our international relations. Israel is an important ally for us because they’re the only democracy in the Middle East. They have the ability to share intelligence with us, which has thwarted terrorist attacks in our country and stopped Australian soldiers from being killed. We’ve got a Government who’s hedging bets on whether they want to condemn a listed terrorist organization, or not. I mean, Penny Wong is like a university advocate. She and Anthony Albanese are still in their own minds, living back in the 80s when they were marching on university campuses, on these left-wing causes. They’re harming our national interest and they’re making our country less safe as a result. I just think it’s another example of the incompetence that they’re demonstrating.
RAY HADLEY:
Can you see Mark Scott surviving as the Vice Chancellor after he failed to get support from the Chancellor, David Thodey, recently, over his admitted mistakes, you know, misrepresentations as the Vice Chancellor, basically, the CEO of Sydney Uni?
PETER DUTTON:
No, I can’t. I think both Mark Scott and David Thodey should resign. If they had any shred of integrity, they would have resigned by now. They should, because there are people in the Jewish community, whether they’re academics or students who were treated, they were discriminated against and they’ve been treated in a way that we wouldn’t accept any other group, regardless of their religion or background or race or whatever it might be, that they would be treated like that.
So, Mark Scott’s admitted that they got it wrong, and they got it wrong well and truly. Both men were aware of the situation – even though they might deny it – and I don’t think their positions are tenable.
RAY HADLEY:
Okay. We’ll talk next week. Thanks very much for your time.
PETER DUTTON:
Hang on Ray. Hang on. So, the 70th tomorrow?
RAY HADLEY:
Yeah, that’s correct.
PETER DUTTON:
Happy birthday, Ray.
RAY HADLEY:
That’s very kind. I’ll expect you and your darling wife, Kirilly too, there’ll be something in the post, I’d imagine? Just a card, or?
PETER DUTTON:
We’re just trying to pack up the zimmer frame now, so, the postage might be tricky…
RAY HADLEY:
Oh, you cheeky mongrel!
PETER DUTTON:
…so yeah, I’ll see what we can do.
RAY HADLEY:
I know one day you might be the Prime Minister, but I can still call you a cheeky mongrel! Oh, dear, oh dear.
PETER DUTTON:
That’s it. Happy birthday, mate. Well done.
RAY HADLEY:
Good on you, mate. It won’t be required for a couple of years anyway. Nice to talk to you, Peter. We’ll talk next week. Thanks.
PETER DUTTON:
Take care.
[ends]