Subjects: Taiwan, Indo-Pacific relations; Voice to Parliament; Labor’s Jobs and Skills Summit stunt.
PATRICIA KARVELAS
Well, staying with that warning from China’s Ambassador to Australia, Peter Dutton is the Federal Opposition Leader and of course former Defence Minister, he joins me now. Welcome back to Breakfast.
PETER DUTTON
My pleasure, Patricia. Thank you.
PATRICIA KARVELAS
You’ve said it’s inconceivable that Australia wouldn’t come to Taiwan’s aid if China invaded. That is not a hypothetical now. The Ambassador says China will reunify Taiwan by any means necessary. Where does that leave us?
PETER DUTTON
Well, we first strongly support the Government’s position because they’re acting in our country’s best interest. They want, as the Treasurer just said, to see a de-escalation. We want to see peace prevail in our region, but at the same time, we’ve got to be very frank about the threat that is there.
There’s no imagination required here. The Chinese Communist Party has been very clear about their intent in relation to Taiwan and there were plenty within Europe that didn’t believe that President Putin was going to go into the Ukraine.
What I don’t want to see is instability in our region and a situation unfold in Taiwan where innocent women and children are the main victims, similar to what we’ve seen, in the Ukraine. That’s not something that any of us would want to see. I think it’s why it’s important to call out the behaviour.
I think it’s also important to point out that New Zealand hasn’t changed its values, Australia hasn’t changed its values or approach, similarly for Vietnam or for Indonesia, for the French, who are obviously heavily involved in the Indo Pacific.
What’s changed here – the non-adherence to the rule of international law – is the action of the Chinese Government under President Xi. It’s a very different country, and we’ve supported the Government in their stance in calling out that behavior because if we don’t shine a light on it, if we think it’s going away, and that we can avoid conflict by saying nothing – I just don’t think that’s a reality.
PATRICIA KARVELAS
You’ve said you won’t waver on calling out China’s bad behavior. Has the Federal Government been strong enough in its response, in your view?
PETER DUTTON
I think so. I think they’ve been using very similar language to what we were using when we were in government, and that’s appropriate because they’d be reading the same intelligence that I’ve been reading for the last five or six years.
I want to make sure that we do everything within our power to avoid conflict and to maintain the peace and stability, which is exactly reflected in the Treasurer’s language earlier. So, we have to be realistic, as I say, and not believe that nothing’s going to happen. I think we’ve taken for granted eight decades of peace and it’s a very awkward topic to talk about, but that’s the reality. The unholy alliance now between Russia and China, the support of Iran, the ally in North Korea, I mean, this is a very concerning period, and…
PATRICIA KARVELAS
It is, so let me…
PETER DUTTON
…We can take a choice to say nothing or we can speak up and be frank about it and hopefully change the course of the Chinese Government’s actions which should be called out. I mean, the surreal press conference yesterday at the Press Club given by the Chinese Ambassador. I mean, you’ve just got to cut through that propaganda and look at the clear message and the clear messages are very concerning.
PATRICIA KARVELAS
This week you described Taiwan as independent. Did you misspeak?
PETER DUTTON
Yes, I did. I’ve been consistent for years in relation to maintaining the status quo. I think if you look at the next sentence of that transcript that you’re reading from, you’ll see that I made that point. So, nobody wants to see a change in the status and we want to – I guess the point I was trying to make was – a population of 25,26 million people are living peacefully, and I want that to continue. I want there to be a respect for the current situation and nobody’s advocating anything different from that…
PATRICIA KARVELAS
So, do you still support a One China policy?
PETER DUTTON
I support the situation as it is at the moment, Patricia. I don’t support the independence, I don’t support the breaking away. I respect China’s position in relation to Taiwan, but I don’t want to see conflict, which would be a very significant event, more sophisticated than what we’ve seen in the Ukraine, more powerful in its force, more casualties, and that’s not something that anybody wants to contemplate in the year 2022.
PATRICIA KARVELAS
No, absolutely not. And after we heard from the Chinese Ambassador yesterday, would you say that conflict is now more likely to be on the cards and what should Australia do in that scenario?
PETER DUTTON
Well, I think a couple of things in terms of what Australia should do. We should bolster our defences because we want to make sure that any adversary understands that there would be a price to pay if there was an attack on our country.
The second thing is that we should be very strong in the support with our allies. Not just the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada and New Zealand, but equally with Japan. I mean, Japan is very concerned about what’s happening in the East China Sea and China has a particular view about Senkaku Islands.
We’re seeing at the moment, very concerning signs on the land border between China and India and we know that Indian troops have died at the hands of Chinese troops just within the last few years.
So again, it’s not India who has changed her values, or Japan, it’s the actions of the Chinese Communist Party under President Xi and that’s what needs to be called out. So, coming together with those allies, and speaking openly and frankly, I think gives us the best chance of allowing China a graceful dismount.
But, they’ve been very clear about their intent, and the Ambassador – while in guarded language – repeated that yesterday. So, nobody should be surprised by China’s actions, if there is an incursion or if there is a conflict because they’ve said that they will be taking back Taiwan come hell or high water.
PATRICIA KARVELAS
They have. Kevin Rudd spoke to us earlier. He says you’re the architect of what he would describe as Australia’s megaphone diplomacy towards Beijing. Are you the architect of that and are you reining that back in?
PETER DUTTON
Well, no. I mean, don’t forget that Kevin Rudd was the one that used the famous language in relation to the Chinese. You know, ‘rat’ – and the second word I won’t repeat on your program.
PATRICIA KARVELAS
Thank you.
PETER DUTTON
So I will hardly take hardly take etiquette lessons from Kevin Rudd. But I think a couple of points.
One is that the Labor Party now I think, under this Prime Minister, understands the depth of the intelligence that’s available and all of that paints one picture and the alliance that we’ve struck, that Scott Morrison was able to strike with the Indians and with the Japanese through The Quad is a very important relationship.
So my point before that we need to come together with allies to provide that deterrence. It’s the whole basis of AUKUS is to try and provide the underpinning of security.
So, I think it may have been inconvenient for Mr Rudd, to hear what was said over the last few years, but I think everything that we have said, frankly, has been vindicated and the same language now is being repeated by Penny Wong and Anthony Albanese, and Richard Marles and others.
PATRICIA KARVELAS
Just finally on the Voice to Parliament. The proposed referendum question for an Indigenous Voice to Parliament has been out for a few weeks now. Where are you going to land on this, Peter Dutton?
PETER DUTTON
Well, we’re listening to it respectfully because reconciliation is incredibly important, but so too is practical action. I want to make sure that in 12 months’ time – and this is a fault of both parties – when we’ve been in government we’ve failed those young boys and girls who are still the subject of domestic violence and sexual assault victims on a regular basis in these communities and I want…
PATRICIA KARVELAS
.. Ok, and I’ve spoken to Aboriginal women who tell me that a Voice to Parliament would allow them – June Oscar – to actually express those views and policy outcomes in a voice framework. So, when you raise that, that’s the answer that they provide that a Voice actually enables them to articulate solutions on questions like the one you just raised. Are you sympathetic to the idea?
PETER DUTTON
Well, there’s no doubt that that’s right, and the Voice is coming in 2024, or whenever the Government’s proposing to put the question. I want to see the action now because I’ve seen first-hand the experience of those who have been sexually assaulted and I can tell you that those people are scarred for life and those kids will have the innocence of their childhood robbed.
So, I think it’s a reasonable discussion to have and they’re not mutually exclusive – to your point, I agree one hundred per cent with that – but there are questions that have been put to the Government at the moment, and the Prime Minister is very open about this, they don’t have the answers to the questions yet. And that’s the process that Linda Burney is rightly embarking on.
PATRICIA KARVELAS
She is. So are you sympathetic to the idea though, that’s what I want to know?
PETER DUTTON
I’m listening respectfully to what the Government has to say and if they can answer the questions then we can have a conversation at that time. But I’ve had private conversations with the Prime Minister, I have made public statements, where I’m approaching it with an open mind.
I’m listening to the contributions made when the Prime Minister says that it will only be a voice on public policy issues that affect Indigenous Australians, I don’t have the answers yet as to what that means because every Australian is interested in defence matters or education matters or public health matters, etc. So, I mean, those basic questions yet, we haven’t got answers to.
So with the Constitution and constitutional change, give rise to high court interpretation, they are all reasonable questions that people are asking and the Government will provide the answers to those in due course, and we can make our response off the back of that.
PATRICIA KARVELAS
Very briefly, the employment summit you’re not going, but David Littleproud is. That’s a bit weird isn’t it, you’re a Coalition?
PETER DUTTON
Well, I think David is particularly concerned about the fact that regional Australia is just not on the invite list and has been completely missed off, missed out and I think that has caused particular grief, rightly, within the National Party.
So, David’s expressed that view and as I mentioned, Jim Chalmers is now the attack dog – he’s the new Paul Keating, or the poor man’s Paul Keating, I might say, or the Tony Abbott of this Government. He’s been sent out as the attack dog and that’s fine, I mean that’s his role. But, he sent the invitation to me by email – 25 minutes later, he dropped it to the Press Gallery. So, if you don’t see that as a stunt then I don’t know what is.
I think the final point Patricia, is that Sally McManus is no Bill Kelty and Anthony Albanese is no Bob Hawke. If people think this is an ‘Accord’ in the modern age, it’s not. It’s a wish list from the ACTU about higher taxation and we’ve seen that yesterday. So, it is a stunt…
PATRICIA KARVELAS
We’re out of time, Peter Dutton…
PETER DUTTON
…That’s fine. The Government is in power to do that, that’s their want, they can do that.
PATRICIA KARVELAS
Thank you so much, Federal Opposition Leader Peter Dutton there.
[ends]