Subjects: Visit to Kalgoorlie; exercise habits; lottery winnings; the Prime Minister’s cost of living crisis; Labor’s home grown inflation; Labor’s Big Australia Migration Policy; the Coalition’s plan to deliver cheaper, cleaner and consistent energy; peddle power pitch.
E&OE.
NATHAN MORRIS:
We’ve got a special guest.
SONG:
‘Peter. Peter. Peter.’.
NATHAN MORRIS:
Everyone!
HOSTS:
Peter, Peter, Peter, Peter, Peter!
NAT LOCKE:
This is your new campaign song, I believe. Peter Dutton, welcome.
PETER DUTTON:
Thank you guys. You put a lot of work into that intro. Well done.
NATHAN MORRIS:
Thank you, thank you. Ripped it straight off the internet…
PETER DUTTON:
There’s a lot of market research, professionally compiled.
NAT LOCKE:
We’re like, ‘his name’s Peter. We know what to do!’.
NATHAN MORRIS:
Well, I think you need a jingle, and I think this is it.
PETER DUTTON:
Okay, well, I think it’s a working jingle. I’ll put it that way. So, thank you.
NATHAN MORRIS:
So, you know we’ve got T-Swift, we just threw out there P-Dutt. Do you like P-Dutt?
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah, I’m happy with Peter.
NATHAN MORRIS:
P-Dutt. No, P-Dutt.
PETER DUTTON:
P-Dutt, Dutto, Dutts – I sort of get all of that.
NATHAN MORRIS:
Oh, P-Dutts!
NAT LOCKE:
The Dutty-Dut-Dut-Dut, you know?
PETER DUTTON:
And a lot worse than that as well, so that’s alright.
NATHAN MORRIS:
I was just saying to you beforehand, I forget when you walk in because you’ve got a powerful presence, Peter Dutton, and a powerful look. But you’re a very gentle man. You’ve got a very gentle – like, I feel like you could be holding a basket of kittens.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, that’s very kind. Thank you, thank you. That could be part of the jingle.
NAT LOCKE:
Peter, there you go!
NATHAN MORRIS:
What? You dancing to that song with a basket of kittens?
PETER DUTTON:
That’s right.
NATHAN MORRIS:
That’ll get you over the line.
NAT LOCKE:
I mean, are you in the market for a new marketing guy? Because I think we just filled the role.
PETER DUTTON:
He’s in, he’s in.
NATHAN MORRIS:
At least we know that that would float on TikTok. That’d be alright.
NAT LOCKE:
Yeah, that’s true. Now, you’ve been in WA for a few days now, but you did go out to Nathan’s hometown – Kalgoorlie. How did you find that?
PETER DUTTON:
I thought it was – I mean there were about 2,700 people there for the forum, and there was just a vibe. It was fantastic, actually. I really, really enjoyed it. They were talking about you as the most famous former resident of the town.
NAT LOCKE:
Were they?
NATHAN MORRIS:
Oh, were they? Wow they must’ve been rallying.
NAT LOCKE:
Did you see the statue to him?
NATHAN MORRIS:
Right next to Paddy Hannan.
PETER DUTTON:
Partly constructed.
That was good, actually, and there’s just that, like, such a ‘can-do’ nature. They’re obviously frustrated by…
NATHAN MORRIS:
Yeah.
PETER DUTTON:
…A lot of the processes they’ve got to go through and how much money it costs to get a mine open and get people employed and the rest of it. But, when they’re operating, it’s a pretty impressive arrangement. So, it was good.
NATHAN MORRIS:
I’ve had friends that’ve gone there to teach, and you know, because you do your country teaching…
NAT LOCKE:
Yes.
NATHAN MORRIS:
…And you do a couple of years of that. But it sticks to you like glue – some people become lifers after that. They just go there and they just think it’s amazing.
PETER DUTTON:
And you can see how that’s the case, right? You know, you get away from the city, away from the traffic, if you’re into camping and four-wheel driving, and just getting away…
NAT LOCKE:
And don’t mind driving 400kms to the beach.
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah, that’s right.
NAT LOCKE:
That’s the nearest beach, but it’s a beautiful beach.
NATHAN MORRIS:
Yes, there is something beautiful about moving into a town where you can count on your hands how many traffic lights there are.
NAT LOCKE:
Yeah, I know.
NATHAN MORRIS:
There’s something about that.
PETER DUTTON:
That’s right.
NAT LOCKE:
And also the other thing, it’s got a rich sporting culture. You know, there’s been a lot of AFL players…
NATHAN MORRIS:
Dean Kemp.
NAT LOCKE:
…And netball players that’ve come our of Kalgoorlie.
NATHAN MORRIS:
Lucy Lawless worked in the mines for a while. That was Zena.
NAT LOCKE:
There we go.
NATHAN MORRIS:
Or warrior woman, whatever it is.
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah, well – and you worked at the?
NATHAN MORRIS:
Surf Shack.
PETER DUTTON:
Surf Shack.
NATHAN MORRIS:
Yes.
PETER DUTTON:
Big business…
NATHAN MORRIS:
Hey, big business. The amount of…
PETER DUTTON:
In Kalgoorlie, the surf store. You must’ve been a great salesman.
NATHAN MORRIS:
I was really good. Yeah, alright now, 15 minutes with you, you’d have been decked out in a fanny pack, corduroy Billabong hat, a Bad Boys muscle tee.
NAT LOCKE:
And some Oakley Frogskins, all the way.
PETER DUTTON:
Those images, you don’t need at this time of the morning.
NATHAN MORRIS:
Some Reef sandals on your feet.
PETER DUTTON:
Nice.
NAT LOCKE:
So, you were telling us you did go shopping in Kalgoorlie, though?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, one of my staff went to pick me up some gym clothes. My wife was over here for a few days as well. She went home yesterday and packed everything into the suitcase. I went to go…
NAT LOCKE:
Oh. She’s like, ‘you’re fine enough. You don’t need to anymore exercise’.
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah, exactly – ‘you’re ripped enough’ – as you can tell.
But I went to go to the gym yesterday afternoon and no gym clothes – day before yesterday, sorry – so anyway, Nari went out and got some new gym gear. I was off there this morning and, it was good actually. I think exercise in the morning, although it’s a pain in the neck, especially if it’s cold or whatever else – tough for you guys because you’re up early anyway – but I do think it’s a great start to the day.
NATHAN MORRIS:
I have to tell you, Peter Dutton, I agree that that seems like a great concept, but I can think of nothing worse than getting up and doing exercise and then having to go to work. That, to me, blows my mind.
NAT LOCKE:
Like, we see people…
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah, but see, you’re skinny already. You guys are skinny already.
NAT LOCKE:
Yeah. We see people jogging in the morning as we’re driving to work and it’s like, ‘what are you doing?’.
HARRY FITZGERALD:
Yeah, it’s hardcore, hardcore.
NATHAN MORRIS:
You do know in Kalgoorlie though, there was that lotto – there’s that lotto agency that sold all those, like the $50 million. Yeah they sold a $50 million syndicate and they did it a few times. And there’s one in Boulder as well.
Off the back of that, do you play lotto?
PETER DUTTON:
I take an occasional Powerball if it’s a big jackpot.
NAT LOCKE:
So you only want to win a lot of money, you don’t want to trifle yourself with the smaller prize pools?
PETER DUTTON:
I’m just not disciplined enough to put it in each week or…
NAT LOCKE:
Sure.
NATHAN MORRIS:
Me too, I only do the big ones which, of course, is what everyone else does.
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah, like when it’s advertised, you think, ‘actually I’ll do that’…
NAT LOCKE:
Oh yep.
PETER DUTTON:
But yeah, no I don’t do it on a regular basis.
NATHAN MORRIS:
Do you personally go in there and get you slip pick?
PETER DUTTON:
No, I do it on the – I used to…
NAT LOCKE:
Oh, on the app.
PETER DUTTON:
…But I do it on the app.
NATHAN MORRIS:
Ok, next question: if you were to win lotto, right? So what is it – $30 million?
NAT LOCKE:
Yeah, $30 million on Thursday.
NATHAN MORRIS:
If you win $30 million, what do we do next? Does Peter Dutton come out and say, ‘I won $30 million?’. Do you try and hide it? Because, you know, it’s a normal situation.
NAT LOCKE:
Do you stay in politics, or do you retire to a beach house?
PETER DUTTON:
Oh I think you stay in politics, but…
NAT LOCKE:
Really?! You’ve got $30 million in your pocket!
PETER DUTTON:
$30 mill – but, yeah…
NAT LOCKE:
I mean, who are you? Malcolm Turnbull?
PETER DUTTON:
I wish it were true. I mean, you’d have to think hard about it, I’ve got to say. I think you help family and friends…
NAT LOCKE:
Yeah.
PETER DUTTON:
You know, I mean, we all give a fair bit of money to charity each year anyway, so lots of causes. I do a lot of work with the Salvos…
NATHAN MORRIS:
Oh, that’s nice.
PETER DUTTON:
…And I’ve been the Chair of the local Salvation Army, Red Shield Appeal for about 20-odd years. The stories are heartbreaking – the young kids, people living in cars, all of those sorts of things. So I think there’s lots of things that you could help with. You’d set your kids up forever..
NATHAN MORRIS:
So, you’d tell people? You’d let everyone know that you’ve won a lotto?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I think I would have to declare it somehow, I think…
NATHAN MORRIS:
Oh, would you though?
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah, I think so. I think so.
NATHAN MORRIS:
I think you do because you’re a private citizen as well.
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah…
NAT LOCKE:
And it’s a win. It’s not like you’re…
NATHAN MORRIS:
There’s the MS Home Lottery here and I put my mum’s name on it because I think that if people saw that I won, they’d go, ‘you’ve got enough’.
NAT LOCKE:
But if we see that your mom won it, we’ll know it was you.
NATHAN MORRIS:
Oh, yeah, she is.
HARRY FITZGERALD:
She’ll merely just get the prop of a Hyundai.
PETER DUTTON:
Exactly.
NAT LOCKE:
She won’t even be allowed to visit.
PETER DUTTON:
I just feel it’s a bridge we should cross at the time though, so…
NATHAN MORRIS:
Well, I’m happy to have the discussion.
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah, yeah sure. It’s great to think about.
NAT LOCKE:
We do like to, you know, just go through all the possibilities, of course.
PETER DUTTON:
I think it’s fair enough.
NATHAN MORRIS:
I do have a politics question, right?
NAT LOCKE:
This will be good.
NATHAN MORRIS:
No, but it is. And I asked Albo this before and I don’t really got the straight answer because, you know, he says we’ve got all these things in place. But, the main thing and the main reason why you may become Prime Minister is because of the fact that people are so burdened with the cost of living, there is nowhere to turn. And this is coming from every sector. I posed this to Albo, and go, ‘You know what’s happening with this?’. And he goes, ‘We’re getting these processes in place’. But as a general consensus, no one can feel it because when something goes down, ten other things go up. I keep calling the head of Hydra.
So my question is, has the horse bolted? If you get in power, are you actually going to be able to do something about this? We’ve seen this supermarket inquiry – that we know now that both the major supermarkets are ripping us off. Nothing’s happened. Nothing’s happened from that. The prices haven’t come down.
So Albo’s saying that he’s got these things in place, but as a general consensus, everything is so expensive. Is everything going to become cheaper under your leadership? If you get a chance – honestly…
NAT LOCKE:
And how can you guarantee that?
NATHAN MORRIS:
Put the policies aside, honestly?
PETER DUTTON:
So, a serious question. I think there are three reasons why we’ve got inflation as a problem at the moment. One is, we’ve got just too much money being spent by the Government. So they’ve spent about an extra $315 billion. Now that money goes into the economy, it drives up the cost of goods and services, and that increases inflation.
Second one is just the energy policy. So pretending that wind and solar is free when it’s not, it’s the reason that your power bills have gone up and that has an impact when you go to the supermarket, because it’s not just your power bill, or gas bill that’s gone up, it’s the farmer and it’s the cold storage. And ultimately they have to pass it on…
NAT LOCKE:
Everybody in the chain.
PETER DUTTON:
Exactly, exactly.
And the third one is just migration, in terms of bringing in about 900,000-odd people in the two-year period that we’ve had – we’ve only built 265,000 homes. So, it’s contributed to the housing crisis that we’ve got as well. So those…
NAT LOCKE:
But we need people to build the houses as well.
PETER DUTTON:
Of course, so…
NAT LOCKE:
…So that’s a difficult cycle.
PETER DUTTON:
So migration is a great thing for our country, but you’ve just got to have it done in a sensible manner…
NAT LOCKE:
Yep.
NATHAN MORRIS:
Yes, you’ve got to look at the numbers.
PETER DUTTON:
So, part of that policy is to make sure that you prioritise people with the trade skills to come in…
NAT LOCKE:
Yep.
PETER DUTTON:
…I mean, we’ve got an ageing workforce. The builders are finding it tough to find apprentices, etc.. I think they’re the three things that have contributed.
When you have a look at Canada at the moment, interest rates are coming down, in the UK, in the United States. I hope that they come down soon here. But the Reserve Bank Governor says, ‘Well, there’s a home grown inflation problem here’…
NAT LOCKE:
Yep.
PETER DUTTON:
…Which is not the case in Canada, the UK and the US. So rates may not come down as quickly here as we would want.
So it’s not going to be fixed overnight, I think that’s the honest answer to it. But you’ve got to be able to manage the economy well, and I think we’ve got a good track record in that. I used to be the Assistant Treasurer with Peter Costello, and we’ve got to get the economy pumping again.
NAT LOCKE:
Well, let’s talk about one of your solutions that you have touted, which is, of course, nuclear power. Now, it’s an expensive option, right? And you haven’t really told us how much it’s definitely going to cost…
NATHAN MORRIS:
Is it more than $100?
NAT LOCKE:
Is it, is it?
PETER DUTTON:
It’s safe to say it’s more than $100.
NAT LOCKE:
Is the cost of setting it up – if it’s even possible to do that, to do what you’re saying, what you’re proposing – is that not going to be – it’s going to have to be offset somehow and that we’re – you understand what I’m saying?
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah, yeah. So, look, I think it’s one of the most important debates for our country – 18 to 34 year olds, 65 per cent of them support nuclear power because they know…
NAT LOCKE:
In principle – but the reality of actually being able to build it here…
NATHAN MORRIS:
And that’s from what we know from The Simpsons.
NAT LOCKE:
…And the cost of it, because of the size of our country and the fact that our population is relatively spread apart compared to other countries where it is successfully implemented.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, yes. So, I mean, there are a few reasons why it makes sense. One is for emissions reductions, we’ve got to decarbonise and we’re not just talking about nuclear – it’s renewables as well. It’s how we firm up the renewables. I mean this morning, you know, the sun’s out, but just, there’s a bit of wind blowing, but we’ve had a wind drought in parts of Australia over the last 12 months. So if you haven’t got that reliable power, you can’t keep cold rooms running and hospitals running, and manufacturers and smelters, and the big employers that use the energy need reliable, cheaper power.
So once coal goes out of the system – and 90 per cent of it goes out by 2034 – what firms up? What gives you that 24/7 full time power to support the part time power of renewables? Well, if it’s not coal, it’s going to be gas. There’s a lot of gas required, and we need to do a lot more in discovering those fields and bringing gas into the system, because more gas will bring the prices down in the short run.
But then if you don’t like the scenario of say, green hydrogen, which now looks less and less likely to be rolled out, what’s left? And for 19 of the 20 biggest countries in the world, it’s nuclear. I think for Australia as well, when you look at it just objectively, and I don’t care for one energy source or the other, I just want it to be reliable, I want it to be cheaper – because we’ve got an abundance of natural resources, it should be cheaper – and we’ve got to reduce our emissions. It ticks all of those boxes…
NAT LOCKE:
Yeah, but we have to be able to afford to build it in the first place.
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah, but have a look at what is happening with Snowy Hydro 2.0. I mean, you’re talking potentially tens of billions of dollars.
NAT LOCKE:
Yep.
PETER DUTTON:
So there’s a huge upfront capital cost for any of these technologies. There is a cost for nuclear. But the thing with nuclear is you can amortise, or spread the cost out, over 60 years, which is the life of the reactor. If you have a look at wind and solar, it’s about 15 to 20 years, and then you’ve got to take them out, put them into landfill, and replace them again. All the mining and the minerals that go into the solar panels or into the wind turbines, all of that has an environmental impact as well.
Bill Gates has this great saying of, let’s maximise the yield of energy out of every square metre of impact on the environment – and that makes sense to me. For a small modular reactor, the latest technology you need about two hectares. You need about 10,000 acres, or 4,000 hectares, roughly, of solar panels to achieve the same energy yield or, offtake from that site.
So it’s a complicated debate, but I just think when you look at other countries – in Ontario, in Canada, in France, I mean, we’re all glued to the TV at the moment for the Olympics – about 70 per cent of their power in Paris comes from nuclear, and they’re paying a fraction of the the electricity costs that we are here.
NATHAN MORRIS:
Ah, I’ve got an idea to solve it. I mean, so here in Australia and we know currently, you know, everyone’s so ‘fitspo’. It’s all about getting fit. So we have an abundance of people going to gyms, but yet people can’t afford the gyms because of cost of living. What if we have free gyms from the Government that have, exercise bikes connected to…
PETER DUTTON:
Oh, I like it. Yep, yep.
NAT LOCKE:
Peddle power.
NATHAN MORRIS:
Peddle power and like, literally…
NAT LOCKE:
And so, people on these bikes already and it’s not really generating electricity. What a wasted opportunity.
NATHAN MORRIS:
And the children as well. So, the children, we introduce something at school that each day, each [inaudible]….
NAT LOCKE:
Spin class.
NATHAN MORRIS:
….peddle for an hour. Like, you know, and then that’s their PhysEd. And then we just pedal Australia into power. Peter Dutton, comments?
PETER DUTTON:
I just feel…
NAT LOCKE:
Why isn’t he writing it down?
NATHAN MORRIS:
I don’t know. It’s ridiculous.
PETER DUTTON:
I feel that Albo’s about to take this up and that makes me really worried. So, has he been here before me?
NAT LOCKE:
It’s a win-win, win-win.
NATHAN MORRIS:
No, this is a fresh – I just came up…
PETER DUTTON:
This sounds like an Albo idea, I’ve got to say.
NATHAN MORRIS:
No, no, I literally – Nat, you’ve never heard this idea before.
NAT LOCKE:
No, this has never come out of his mouth.
NATHAN MORRIS:
This is fresh for the P-Dutts.
PETER DUTTON:
Oh ok.
NATHAN MORRIS:
What are we thinking?
PETER DUTTON:
Well we’ve given it due consideration and thought, and no, we’re not going to do that.
NATHAN MORRIS:
Oh, I didn’t see you meet.
HARRY FITZGERALD:
Where’s the media announcement?
NAT LOCKE:
That’s strange, very strange.
PETER DUTTON:
I think the lights are going out with that model but it’s a good pitch.
NATHAN MORRIS:
It’s the simplest that they don’t go for.
NAT LOCKE:
No, I know, isn’t it? That’s a problem solving on many different fronts.
NATHAN MORRIS:
It’s a problem. Yeah, yeah.
NAT LOCKE:
Children get fitter.
NATHAN MORRIS:
But don’t worry, if you don’t like the Australian children, that’s fine.
NAT LOCKE:
We’re out of time, Peter Dutton but thank you so much.
PETER DUTTON:
Thanks guys, very much. Appreciate it, appreciate it.
NAT LOCKE:
We know you’re off back to Canberra tonight? Or Sydney?
PETER DUTTON:
Back to Brisbane actually tonight. Yeah.
NAT LOCKE:
Oh right. Okay. Well, thanks for visiting.
PETER DUTTON:
I look forward to coming back soon.
NATHAN MORRIS:
Thank you so much.
NAT LOCKE:
I’m sure. It’s Peter…
SONG:
‘Peter. Peter. Peter.’.
NAT LOCKE:
Oh, there’s your song.
NATHAN MORRIS:
There’s your jingle.
SONG:
‘Peter.’.
[ends]